Limiting stats vs limiting immersion
Hey, a pretty new DM here (and pathfinder player for that matter). I had a small problem pop up when I was guiding a couple of friends (who are complete newbies to tabletop RPs btw) to creating their characters for our first Pathfinder game. It's concerning racial archetypes (visual/physical ones) and stats.
One of my players (who chose a half-orc) ended up with 13str after all the stat rolls. On the other hand, our female elf player (who relies on speed and archery btw) got her str to 14 due to overall great dice rolls. This instantly ticked off the half-orc, commenting how it doesn't make sense for an elven chick to be able to be stronger. Then, someone commented that technically even a gnome/halfling can be physically stronger than a half-orc if they get good initial stat rolls. This instantly created a nearly 30 minute long argument (mostly about how unrealistic it is even by fantasy standards for a small creature like a gnome to become stronger than an orc and how it should be physically impossible for him to achieve something like that no matter how much he trains and what his class is).
Things cooled down after that and everyone is still quite excited to play, however its obvious that this has become a bit of a taboo subject and that its quite likely to break some of the half-orc's roleplay immersion from time to time. I considered creating different mins and max stat limits for the various races, based on their usual physical stereotypes to help with immersion but that would limit character creation quite a bit (some classes may even be severely handicapped and not viable for some races).
How would you guys deal with a problem like that (if you hadn't already)? Gameplay or roleplay?
Posted Jul 24, 2016, 3:58 AM UTC
First of all, you need to understand that 18 STR for a Gnome is not the same as 18 STR for a Human. The Gnome will always be relegated to smaller weapons and have lower CMD/CMB, so there are effects where STR doesn't matter.
Half-Orcs can be scrawny as hell too.
14 STR is "very well-toned". The Half-Elf is, the Half-Orc is packing a bit more fat under his belt than he should but is still buff.
18 STR is massive. People just think that because that's one of the possible opening STRs then that's what "well trained" should look like. It's not. 18 STR is a goddamned wrecking ball in this game at level 1. 10 is average. 12 is fit. 14 is strong. 16 is stronger than TEN MEN.
Archers in this game want good STR as well.
(Don't get too hang up on this one, but I find it a bit offensive that he thinks because a character is female she should be weaker than his.)
In the end, the best way to deal with this is simple: DON'T ROLL. Use point buy arrays. Rolling is okay if you are fine with going with whatever class and race. But if you are making them come up with their concepts first, then give them the point buy to realize them. 25 point buy is my recommended setting as it allows a variety of builds.
18 STR has a maximum load of 300lbs. Anyone who can farmer's walk 600lbs has 18 STR (CRB says "A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it.")
It's impressive and definitely uncommon, but not superhuman in the least.
That's your problem then - I think you underestimate humans. We got some pretty extreme dudes among us.
I'm not sure this had anything to do with the elf being female. For all we know, one of the other players is an elf as well and I think we can all agree that sex is one of the quickest and easiest to translate to our world in terms of difference. So this could be the elven chick and the magus/wizard/whatever is the elf dude. It's rather presumptious and rude to assume the half-orc player is being sexist, whether he knows it or not, without more information. And in the end, the whole gender thing doesn't matter because this is a game and we should all be adults about this and accept that in a fantasy world, the rules we're used to or expect are out the window and replaced by whimsy so we shouldn't get hung up over it. Roll the damn dice and have fun.
The problem was that in fantasy fiction we're used to seeing elves (especially females) as this beautiful and graceful humanoid creatures that are all pretty average as far as muscle mass goes. That's what I imagine triggered our half-orc (especially since she's big on the warcraft franchise world and there ain't no way an elf there will be visually stronger than an orc).
Also, the player is female irl and I can assure you, she's not really sexist or anything like that. The whole thing comes purely from the visual representation of the races that we're usually used to.
That explains a lot. Fucking Orc shoulder equips are huge
Haha, yeah.
Well in pathfinder elves suffer no str penalties, that aspect is handled by a con penalty, and it's perfectly possible for one to outdo a half orc, especially as half orcs put their +2 in any stat, not necessarily str.
I did say he shouldn't get hung up over that :P
Just a personal thing.
Regarding 1, I never really thought of it like that, thanks for clarifying it. I guess our group is too used to looking at stats from a video game perspective, where 18 str is 18str no matter your race and class.
The point buy thing sounds like a good idea, though technically if the elf player wants to do it he can still rival the orc in str numbers, so it wouldn't remove the innate cause of the issue. Thanks for the idea though, will contemplate on it.
She could, at a great cost. For an Elf to get 18 STR takes a ton of points (remember, the higher the modifier, the more expensive it is to go there). The Half-Orc, with the ability to move his +2 to STR, should be able to get 18 STR by just getting 16 STR and applying the +2.
Investigate on the functioning of point buys so you get a better idea.
Agreed on all points. I'm running my game with a 25 pt buy, but no stats above 16 before racials. Most of my players characters are well-balanced, and not too OP.
Yeah 18 STR is crazy. It's, like, 20% stronger than 10 STR!
Uh, 10 STR can lift 100 lbs max. 18 STR can lift 300 lbs. That's a 300% improvement.
Well, firstly that's a 200% improvement, what you just said.
And secondly, it's inconsistent overall. 18 STR can pass a DC 24 check. 10 STR can pass a DC 20 check. And there's only a 20% chance that the 18STR will out-muscle the 10STR thanks to their higher STR.
Let's talk fisticuffs.
18 STR Commoner has a chance, on a crit, to straight up irreparably murder a 12 CON Commoner. The 10 STR Commoner cannot even knock a 12 CON Commoner down on a crit.
The 10 STR Commoner may need to get 7 hits to knock down the 12 CON Commoner. However, no 12 CON Commoner can take TWO hits from 18 STR Commoner without going down.