Smashing in 3D: A Look at Mewtwo's Tail Hurtboxes

[Analysis]

This topic came up a couple times recently in the Mewtwo discord, so I figured this would be a good opportunity to consolidate all my info on the matter in a more public and lasting format.

One of Melee Mewtwo's most infamous weaknesses is his highly vulnerable tail. Its prominent hurtboxes constantly get in the way. Turning around will actually extend Mewtwo's hurtboxes in the direction he was originally facing, so players have to take great care to ensure they're facing their opponent whenever reasonably possible. It's not uncommon to see Mewtwo players dashdance through a mixture of dashing forward, wavedashing forward/back, moonwalking, and stickywalking.

Mewtwo did retain some hurtboxes on his tail in the transition to PM, but they're better fitted to the tail itself (more accurate sizing, and they don't drift around at odds with the tail's movement as sometimes occurs in Melee). So that means Mewtwo players still have to work around the tail hitboxes, right?

Well... Maybe not.

If you look closely, you can probably guess what's going on here. If not, you may find this enlightening.

When the PMDT animated Mewtwo they took advantage of the fact that Smash utilizes three dimensions, even though most movement occurs in just two. Mewtwo's tail, and thus his tail hurtboxes, are offset into this third dimension during most animations that don't involve attacking with the tail.

Here is a slow-motion gfy showing many of his movement animations from the side. It's not perfectly aligned, but it's close enough to show the offset tail in motion while also revealing several important animations where his tail is still vulnerable: jumpsquat, heavy landing, and any falling animation except special fall.

The falling animation is rarely an issue. The more important concern is thus that you (still) don't want to wavedash while facing away from your opponent in situations where you're in immediate danger, as hitboxes that hit fairly low to the ground may clip Mewtwo's tail. On the upside, the fact that Mewtwo's tail is (mostly) safe in other animations better enables Mewtwo to take advantage of basic ground movement options such as dashdancing. His dash may not be particularly fast (slightly below average initial velocity at 1.4), but his hurtbox displacement during the initial frames of his dash is pretty good. Contrast the position of Mewtwo's hurtboxes while standing (where he just barely gets clipped by Roy's ftilt at full extension), when dashing away at the last possible moment, and after a dash forward.

While this doesn't magically transform Mewtwo into a dashdance-oriented character, it's still an important option to bear in mind. Having even an average dashdance is important for increasing the tempo, threat level, and safety of Mewtwo's ground game. It allows him to more effectively pressure space (short, ambiguous movement to complement his midrange burst movement capabilities), while also improving his defensive capabilities. If Mewtwo is dashing forward, his fastest option for immediately shifting his hurtboxes out of danger is to simply dash away. Shield stop->wavedash back is the next best option, and will overtake dash back over longer timeframes (~15+ frames). Wavedash back is less effective due to the momentum retained during jumpsquat, and dash back->wavedash is also inferior to either of the first two options due to the tail's vulnerability during jumpsquat and landing lag.

Posted Sep 4, 2016, 7:25 AM UTC · edited

9625
Drinkingfood•

I had actually been wondering for awhile if this had been addressed with mewtwo's PM development, was too lazy to actually check lol

10
LimbuGuy•

A good read IC, thanks!

4
JadeyesAKThe only real Samus in Alaska.•

Holy shit that's so cool! I knew they fixed the buggy hurtboxes from melee, but I didn't know they worked this hard to address his weakness from behind. Very cool post IC, I'll definitely spread this info up here.

4
InfinityCollisionOP•

Thanks! It's a pretty clever way to handle those hurtboxes. It doesn't make much sense for his tail to be fully disjointed (which is the solution SDR uses, since their options are more constrained), but this solution still allows him to move freely without too much concern. It's also interesting to note that Smash 4's Mewtwo handles his tail in the exact same way. There are hurtboxes throughout most of its length, but most of the time they're safely tucked away off-axis.

1
BlueVII•

This is some cool stuff! Thanks for the info.

2
dushiel•

cool shit

2
Kriv_Nadar•

Interesting. I may pick up mewtwo again because of this.

1
CheCrayBiggM•

I may pick up meet who again

Meet who, the legendary pokeman

7
Kriv_Nadar•

Thanks for that.

1
HailHydra71•

I'm not entirely sure why tail hurtboxes would stop you from playing him in the first place, that's just pessimistic

1
Kriv_Nadar•

That isn't why I stopped in the first place. The reason I stopped was because occasionally when I would try to midair jump I would accidentally hover instead. Seeing how the animations use 3D space though (dammit luigi) makes me want to pick him back up and see what I can pull off.

1
HailHydra71•

Ah, makes sense

Well, you should pick him up again!

1
Kriv_Nadar•

Is there a way to mitigate the accidental hovering? It's the only thing preventing me from taking him seriously.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Cheevy•

Also important to keep in mind that many hitboxes use the 3rd dimension as well, which mitigates this somewhat.

1
InfinityCollisionOP•

This is true, though it's generally not too much of an issue. Off the top of my head it's mostly relevant against FE and DK. They do sometimes use attacks with wide arcs in neutral (all three FE DAs, Ike's bair, Marth/Roy/DK nair), so it's certainly something to bear in mind for those matchups. Maybe Tink as well, I think some of his aerials have significant z-axis movement.

1
Shockboundツ•

Pretty much all of G&W's hitboxes go very deep into the Z-axis, especially his N-Air, D-Tilt, and F-Air. You wouldn't believe how many times I've caught Mewtwo's tail with something stupid.

2
InfinityCollisionOP•

Nair for sure because that hitbox is stupidly large even by G&W's standards, but it's not really a neutral tool in anything but name. Dtilt shouldn't catch his tail during a dashdance (maybe near the base, but it'd be close), and while fair's outer hitbox is also pretty meaty it's worth pointing out that Mewtwo's tail isn't offset as much during his double jump. It's not something you (should) often see with good spacing, but an unsafe recovery like that will certainly leave him wide open.

Wish I'd thought of using G&W to align my screenshots sooner, that's something I'll have to remember for later.

1
_Garr_•

That...explains a lot

1
acaferraAKA Choice Scarf AKA Nobu•

Wow this is really cool. Can't help but feel envious but I like how clever this solution is. Good to know Mewtwo's dash dance is better than expected.

1
keyonte0•

Am I the only one who thinks this was a bad idea? It just makes the hitbox some wonky and can pontially make him still get hit be abilities with wide angles/hitboxes. Along with that, hitboxes on the Z axis are already super inconsistent, something that in a lot of cases was never even addressed by the PMDT.

1