Cosmos in Crisis: Late Pay, Furloughs cast team's future in doubt
empireofsoccer.com/cosmos-in-crisis-late-pay-...
empireofsoccer.comPosted Nov 28, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC
194340
empireofsoccer.comD2 is dying. This sucks for the development of the pyramid. I am MLS guy all the way but an ambitious wildcat D2 league poking the MLS bear was not a bad thing, IMO.
98
Agreed. I just wish it had been a better-organized wildcat league. The NASL should have worked to be the best, most stable D2 possible, and from that perch could have influenced the sport in our country. But they got ahead of themselves, tried to seize the reward without doing the hard work.
43
This is the kind of level headed position I've struggled to find on this sub for a while. It's hard to deny that a successful NASL is a good thing for US soccer, yet some people here were openly saying they want NASL to fail and being upvoted for it.
Unfortunately, this is looking like it might be the end of the road for the league. They made a lot of mistakes, but I was hoping they would be able to limp along until they could realize their errors and get their shit together. I'm still holding out hope though. I might even check out a few Cosmos games if they're around next year.
24
some people here were openly saying they want NASL to fail and being upvoted for it
I've never been among those wanting the NASL to go away, but I was hoping that they'd hit rock bottom and be forced to change their business model.
Some people here were reacting to the small minority of obnoxious NASL fans, some didn't like the adversarial position that the NASL took, threatening legal action if they weren't given the same D1 status as MLS.
I'm still hoping that we can get a stable domestic pyramid out of this. Fingers crossed.
19
Wait, they wanted d1 status? How can they justify?
7
No idea - they haven't even met d2 standards yet.
8
They were working toward the standards set by USSF to get d1 status... then USSF changed the standards
2
Having the league fold will create issues. However it wont be the end of available talent in the USA. Players will fold into other leagues and those leagues will grow in every aspect. If NASL folds it will only create space for growth. Sure, its gonna suck for a bit. Some fans will lose the teams they love. However we will all move on. Maybe even look back at this moment as something horrible that created something better. Well least thats my positive spin on what is currently a sad thing to watch.
4
I think the USL/NASL split was for the best. All the dissenting parties wouldve voted no on mls II teams, and newer investors wouldn't have opted to join with that much dissent among the owners.
17
an ambitious wildcat D2 league poking the MLS bear was not a bad thing,
As Jim Croce put it: "You don't tug on superman's cape / You don't spit into the wind / You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger / And you don't mess around with [Jim]" or the MLS and the USSF.
I never though the NASL was going to be a foil to the MLS, especially with the NASL, after getting approval for the league and getting waivers for its insufficiencies, turned around a sued the USSF and the MLS.
They sued primarily because the USSF would not give them D1 status. Which was remarkable as they (NASL) could not even meet D2 standards, requiring a waiver, much less the current then later, upgraded D1 standards
6
USL Pro has always been D2. NASL just somehow got that name even though it was on par with USL Pro. USL Pro even has MLS II teams which solidifies it as a league even more.
-12
Is it really so easy to forget what a tirefire USL has been? They've barely got as many independent clubs as the NASL had last year. They've folded god knows how many clubs in the past 10 years. They're on an upswing now but so was NASL just a year ago. It remains to be seen if they can maintain this momentum. Lower leagues soccer in the US has been a shit show for a lot longer than most of us have followed the sport in this country. There is absolutely nothing good that comes from a club struggling no matter which league it's in.
34
The thing is, USL Pro is going to be around for a while as a result of MLS II teams. This is something they didn't have before along with their partnership with the MLS that solidifies them as D2. The NASL president a while ago made the laughable statement that NASL was going to be D1 in the future, even though they didn't qualify for the D2 standards set by US Soccer.
3
And USL has aggressively pushed beyond their weight to become D2. Just because you're sympathetic to their POV, it adds as much instability to the domestic soccer scene as anything NASL has done. There are no heroes and villains here.
9
You know USL does not meet the current requirements for D2 standards that are set by US Soccer.
6
The thing is, USL Pro is going to be around for a while as a result of MLS II teams.
It certainly provided fast capital via expansion and intangible help in league and front-office operations, but overall I think this remains to be seen. The rumors of Montreal preparing to withdraw FC Montreal after their three-year obligation to USL is met suggests there could be plenty of drama yet to unfold as MLS clubs evaluate the ROI of running professional development sides.
1
I'm from Austin, so I know all the ins and outs of "D2" and "D3" soccer and teams folding/moving due to finances.
1
MLS being a "bear" is the worse thing IMO
-14
Come on. IF a tier system is going to exist then you will always have a "bear". This just looks and feels like growing pains for USsoccer. Some will survive some wont. With Pro/Rel already up in the air and in discussion......well everyone needs to fall in line.
2
I have to admit that I don't watch a ton of lower-division soccer outside of the US Open Cup, but I hate to see these lower leagues failing like this. At some point, US Soccer needs to step in do something about the viability of these teams in order to protect the development of players in this country.
63
I agree, but the onus should be on the league first and foremost. We now know that the NASL had at least two clubs fail to make payroll this year, with no apparent consequences from the league.
The NASL should force the sale of any club that can't or won't pay its bills. Get their own financial house in order - in this context, the NASL's play for D1 is laughable.
38
How can they force the sale of something they don't own? The NBA kinda did it with the Clippers, but I have to believe that we're talking about very different kinds of club/league agreements here.
3
Simple - after the first instance, they sit the owners down and tell them that even one more bounced check will mean suspension from the league. They can't tell the owners how to run their business, but neither does the league have to prop them up by letting them play. If the owners continue to not pay their bills, you give it teeth. Announce that the Strikers will not be playing in the NASL in 2017 under their current ownership. The owners either have to go begging to USL, or sell for whatever they can get.
Playing in the league is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege comes with certain basic responsibilities, like not dragging other teams down with them.
8
it's a pretty standard thing for most sports leagues (at least in the USA with franchises). MLB forced the Dodgers sale, for example.
2
Exactly. If ownership groups fail to meet their obligations, responsible sports leagues have leverage to force them out.
1
Yes, NBA owners dont actually "own" the team. The NBA does. Each owner basically buys a "share" into the NBA in the form of a team. Think of owning a fast food franchise. Just because you bought into it, doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to do including running it into the ground.
1
They are, it's called using MLS II sides to firm up the financial viability of D3 soccer, then promoting that financially viable entity to D2.
After that happens USSF will look into making D3 soccer a thing again, with the likely course of action being to split off USL clubs whose ownership cannot handle the burden of D2.
16
The proposed USL D2, is not to elevate the present USL's D3 League to a D2 status.
The USL will have a new D2 League, with different requirements than the NASL, the current D2 League, and the USL's D3 League. Some of the existing USL D3 teams will make the jump to the D2 if they meet or can meet the new USL D2 requirements. Many of the USL's D3 teams will stay put in the current USL. especially all of the MLS teams as they have nothing really to gain moving to the USL D2.
The remaining solvent D2 teams in the NASL, which are getting smaller day by day, will have to make a decision soon, or it will be made for them. If the USSF approves the new USL D2 soon, it also may not grant the continuing waiver for D2 Leagues that has been extended to the NASL, almost since it's inception. If that waiver is not extended, the NASL will automatically be sent to a D3 status. While the USSF can allow two D2 Leagues, it most likely ask for them to consolidate into one.
If the Cosmos, which is the main energy behind the NASL, are having financial difficulty, it does not bode well for continuing the NASL.
4
This sounds nice but do you have any sources for any of these positions?
8
The proposal of the USL d2 League was posted on the USL site but has been taken down. It probably was or has to be modified as the timelines for approval and league action was for approval gained in 2104 (for a league starting in 2017) As no approvals were given for that timeline, they would have to be changed. Other than hat, everything else was found via google. The existing requirements for a D2 League can be found HERE and minimal Professional standards are here
These are the minimum standards for Pro soccer in the US, however every League from the MLS to the NPSL has its own financial and other requirement to join that league.
1
USL is definitely gunning for D2. I have no clue what you're going on about.
3
If you take out the MLS2 teams and the MLS affiliated teams, only about 5 teams currently qualify for the USL 2 requirements. That is just qualifying on stadium requirements, I have no idea if they want to up their team guarantees to almost 50 percent more.
To escalate the whole D3 league to D2 standards does not make sense, economically or otherwise. The USL wants to do a D2 League, and want to use the pool of D3 teams to populate that league where possible, but a lot of team ownership groups are happy in the d3, do not want to make the step up which will require most of them to recapitalize their teams to accommodate a new stadium, and increase the staff and operating income to accommodate the extra requirements. And this, to many teams who are mostly breaking even. While the Cincinnati's or Sacramento's might see an MLS franchise in the offing, they may NOT want to for USL2, if it requires changes to the team that may be incompatible with the MLS.
In short While the USL has applied for a D2 status, its for not every team in a D3 League, as the requirements for a D2 team are substantially different than for a D3 one.
1
Or split D3 into D2 and D3.
3
I personally like to think that that is USL's long term goal. Make D2. Acquire whatever NASL teams want to come over. And PDL has been making moves for NPSL teams.
Once USL has an oversaturation of teams and PDL too, introduce USL 2, dropping some D2 teams to the D3 league and bring some of the PDL teams up to D3. And wham bam, you have a USL 1 and USL 2.
9
Then, the final logical step will be to suck teams from NPSL to PDL.
That way, they will dominate divisions 2 to 4.
1
It not the Leagues (as in the plural), it's the NASL. The USL and others appear to be healthy.
3
USL might be healthier than NASL but most of the teams in USL are still losing a lot of money so they aren't as healthy as everyone thinks.
5
I think generally, the League is healthy with fewer D3 teams doing badly. I good portion of the USL teams (almost, I think, 10-13 teams) are actually owned, or partially owned, by MLS teams, and many more are affiliated to MLS teams. So discounting the MLS2 teams, who really don't care (or more likely, not as important) if the teams pay for themselves, you have the teams like Sacramento and Cincinnatti who are pulling down MLS-like attendance, a few others who are doing good, And then some doing OK but not great and are about breaking even, and then you probably have less than a half a dozen who are problematic and losing money This is very manageable and while not easy, is fixable.
After the Cosmos announcement, there is only the Indy Eleven who have not (yet) announced any upcoming fixes or restructuring because of money issues. The NASL is a very sick League, the USL, much less so.
3
This is on NASL not US soccer. They have been giving NASL leeway, and they still fail. Don't feel sorry for them. They are the ones mucking up development.
3
i'm not sure I agree. If you view the USL as the development league (likely to gain D2 status in 2017), then we're in pretty good shape. That league is viable and has a relationship with MLS.
The NASL on the other-hand is in this sort of no-man's land where it wants to be billed as a D1 league (hilarious) and compete with MLS. It has no ability to do so. Losing the NASL (and moving some of those teams to the USL) may make US Soccer arguably more stable.
It sucks to see the NASL struggle so mightily, but at the same time, what the hell are they doing?
1
A few reactions to this:
-
I remember listening to a Neil Morris interview a couple years ago where he was saying how overspending is not a good idea in US Soccer. He said it again today. The Cosmos' ability to snag the players they do has always raised eyebrows. Well it looks like the other shoe fell this year. It's hard not to castigate the Cosmos ownership and FO for running their ship in this unsustainable way for so long. How in the heck did they not stop at the end of the year and not pinpoint attendance (or their stadium) as a major issue that needed urgent attention before money was spent on this year's team? Also as an aside: Will Miami adjust their operations in response to this?
-
The Cosmos are a convenient villain because their team was so damned unbeatable. Arrogant fans are everywhere but they don't always come with an actually talented team. I hated the Cosmos because MNUFC got to beat them only once. Hating them doesn't translate to being happy at all to see them fold.
-
r/mls will laugh at this but it really is shitty to see the Cosmos brand begin to wither again. It would be better for all of us if it did well. For better or worse, it remains very recognizable outside this country. If it dies that's a news story that casts a shadow.
-
The NASL now seems to be failing at its early stated goal of producing a league where teams shared best practices and helped one another to eschew the dangers that lower division US soccer had suffered for decades. We also don't know why the league office has not been able to put down expansions at a rate that allows them to weather the shocks we've seen. Hard questions remain for the league office to answer after all of this year's debacles. It's hard to see the strategy that's been in place for the last couple years remaining sustainable.
-
Some of the blame for all this has to sit on the USSF. The NASL has openly feuded with MLS. USL has openly feuded with NASL. How has this shit show been allowed to unfold as it has without strong leadership stepping in? Why wasn't a decision made about sanctioning and the league leadership whipped into accepting it? Where was the guidance on expansion and fit & proper tests for new ownership groups? It seems that the federation has thrown its hand's up and allowed market forces to resolve everything. The same market forces by the way that MLS went single-entity to try and avoid. The lower leagues in this country have floundered of decades under bad ownership, league mismanagement and unstable spending. How in the hell did the federation not think that leagues feuding with one another would hurt? If this NASL dies, it hurts all of US soccer. The story investors in the US and all around the world see will be, "Soccer remains a dicey investment in America." In time that might be overcome but it still slows growth. It also leaves fans around the country feeling hopeless.
This is depressing all around. No doubt about it.
50
The NASL now seems to be failing at its early stated goal of producing a league where teams shared best practices and helped one another to eschew the dangers that lower division US soccer had suffered for decades.
Now? NASL failed at this from the get-go. David Downs talked about it, but never achieved anything that could actually make an impact on teams' bottom line, such as a league-wide hotel, airline, rental car, or insurance partner. The league office was always just a handful of people and was never in any way capable of helping teams pick up slack as a result of their own front office shortcomings. for his part, Bill Peterson never seemed to give it a moment's thought and did nothing to move to correct it, even though it wasn't too late when he came on board in 2012.
52
Underrated comment.
9
Happy cakeday
4
ooooo
1
[deleted]
1
It's egregious that such an obvious opportunity for cost savings was let go.
1
For better or worse, the league really ran on a foundation of "run your business the way you want to." When Miami FC sold its first game with the marketing strategy "come ogle these pretty girls", we were told by league partisans that the NASL didn't have any say in promotions. When the Strikers started bouncing paychecks, and the Rayo owners were publicly squabbling over assets, the NASL was silent.
And, as you say, the NASL passed up opportunities to pool costs, save money and even make money from sponsorships, because they elected to let the teams operate on their own.
I hope we've seen the limitations of the "totally independent club" model. There needs to be some centralized league authority, even if clubs are given wide latitude under it.
9
What's frustrating is that it didn't have to run that way, nor was that what was intended. The TOA was upset with how USL churned and burned through poorly vetted expansion groups, with how there was no help from the league to get new clubs up and running, with how few shared resources there were to help everyone in the league. They wanted a strong central entity, just not one that controlled their IP or meddled in their on-field affairs. Instead, they got a spineless league office with minimal staffing and almost no capital to pursue league initiatives. The NASL office was never in a position to be that rising tide because it never had the wherewithal to do so.
What's sad is that that strong central entity could absolutely have worked while still providing the distinction from MLS that the league needed; instead, the league tried so hard to distinguish itself that it completely overlooked off-field areas where centralization had merit.
2
It's just one example of how the league failed to create a central entity as envisioned by the TOA. Turnover among ownership groups (often for the better) certainly played a role in that but the failure was well underway by the time Peterson took over as commish.
3
r/mls will laugh at this
No, not all of us.
32
How is it USSF's fault that the NASL picked a fight with them after getting in bed with the crooks from Traffic?
You refuse to play by the rules, insist that your rules are better, screw yourself over with your petty bickering, then blame the people who made the rules that are working well for everyone else?
26
How is it USSF's fault that the NASL picked a fight with them after getting in bed with the crooks from Traffic?
It isn't the USSF's fault that the NASL and USL did shitty things feuding. It's the federation's fault that they didn't put a stop to it using the tools at their disposal. The threat of being cut loose and made independent for example.
-1†
Put a stop to what?
3
This is a blatant mischaracterization of what the NASL attempted to do, which was merely try to succeed without certain billionaires' permission. That the USSF refused to support them (and that's putting it politely) in that endeavor is undeniable. That they have completely failed their non-MLS constituents.
The NASL did not "pick a fight." They just tried to survive and prosper despite the presence of a monopoly in their market. They've failed. Stop pretending they're villains.
-13
No, they arent villains. But their decisions have placed them in this situation. Several times they have been offered a way out. Now it comes to this. How many times do you need a life raft to pass you by before you get on it? I would HATE to see this team disappear into the pages of futbol history. However it sounds like that keyboard is already writing away the paragraphs. Or worse. They go under and some corporation buys the rights for pennies.
4
Life raft #1: Working with MLS
Life raft #2: Owners turning down involvement with SUM because Traffic was going to be much more profitable.
1
One of my biggest complaints about the Cosmos is their crowing about their worldwide recognition when they really needed to work on their recognition in the NY metro area, in particularly Long Island. This worldwide fame didn't help them get a stadium, nor help them get people to go to their games. I see news articles from the Guardian and the Independent, but not the NY Post, Daily News or NY Times. This is why they have their difficulties and I'm very sad for them and their fans.
22
r/mls will laugh at this but it really is shitty to see the Cosmos brand begin to wither again.
Really the only reason to do this is after remembering the multiple times I was told on here that the Cosmos don't have to worry about spending too much or about the small crowds since they're just rich af. Does anyone still have any idea what the ownership of this group looks like? What a fall to go from trying to fund your own (oversized) stadium to failing to pay your players. Was that money ever actually there?
12
No, there is no reason to laugh, and this is a strange post considering most Cosmos fans on here would be quick to point out how relatively small our ownership is.
2
most Cosmos fans on here would be quick to point out how relatively small our ownership is
I missed this, all I remember are vague references. Do you have a link to where the money behind this is? And again, I thought the Cosmos were going to fund the stadium themselves? A group who can't pay their players shouldn't be funding the acquisition of bleachers let alone a 20k stadium.
15
Do you have a link to where the money behind this is?
The only investigative reporting I've ever seen was from a now-dead page on Total Footblog, I believe by Chris Dobens, in which the combined net worth of Sela Sport and World Sport Group was found to be in the 9-digit range, I believe around $300-400 million. Net worth, not available expenditure. Given that Elmont Crossings itself was valued as at a $400 million privately-funded proposal, it stands to reason that either that estimate was wrong, or there's other, silent investors involved.
My fear is that such investors would be of the same moral shadiness of which I am so quick to criticize City Football Group over. Were that the case, I could no longer in good conscience support the club.
If there's still a club, anyway.
-4
The current NASL never had cost containment policy's built into it's charter or business plan, unlike the USL. It pretty much mimic 'ed the old NASL which was around for around 20 years but it too folded over cost issues. The NASL gave its teams and ownership groups a lot of responsibility with only minimal oversight, which, IMHO, is part of the failing.
The NASL eschewed the financial and operational oversight brought in by the MLS and copied by the USL after it was sold by Nike, in favor of independent owner responsibility and oversight.
I feel that the lack of oversight was deliberate by some of the original owner/founders of the NASL, Traffic Sports, in order to hide away from some dodging dealings. Traffic Sports is now a shell, its Brazilian and North American owners were found out and prosecuted for soccer related fraud charges.
If you set up a league to prevent it's owners from having oversight by another authority, like the League offices, as is the practice in the USL and MLS, sooner or later those lax policies will catch up, and the worst to feel the pinch, will be the employees.
The NASL never got along with the USL and MLS because those leagues kept pointing out issues, which in their dealings with the NASL, were counterproductive. The MLS is bursting at the seems from ownership groups wanting a franchise. The USL has seen its size almost double and has instituted even more rigourous finanacial oversight. Even the 4th division, the PDL and the NPSL are growing.
Soccer is not a "dicey investment" if managed properly. It is a challenging investment. I do not think that any of the original NASL made any long term profit. Even the Cosmos back then, scraped by, when even bringing in huge crowds, had little cost control and only average a marginal profit, and never really recouped investment costs.
The LA Galaxy in 2003, became the first team in the MLS and probably in American soccer, to make a declared profit, but it too, has probably only recouped its total initial (sans stadium costs) investment recently. While revenue growth are not crazy, they are health and improving every year, but what is the savior for the MLS is its cost containment. The NASL never had a good one and now it's on the brink of insolvency.
7
what is the savior for the MLS is its cost containment.
This will also be its Achilles heel.
0
Every football League, as well as most professional sports have some cost containment. The salary cap, hard and soft is part of every US League. This is not the case in Europe, but many Leagues have looked to implement and even FIFA has it's fair play rules which limit teams in the buying and selling of players.
1
Comparing ffp to MLS cost controls is a bit much.
US leagues can use caps and other mechanisms because they have no competition for labor. Not to mention the fact that they are profit-maximizing leagues and, as such, are not useful comparators in any way for soccer.
1
I'm interested to see what happens with Miami FC. Watched them a bit this year, that $750k transfer fee for Poku looks sort of rough right now.
4
Completely forgot about that. Wasnt Poku a decent player too?
1
He was an odd player. Flashes of absolute brilliance and brute force when he did play (though sparingly) yet two different managers didn't seem to trust him to be a starter and he was sold. NYCFC knew they would need midfielders for the coming year with Iraola and Lampard retiring yet they still sold him.
1
"But that isn’t the worst of it. Payroll has also been an issue, with top-to-bottom delays in weekly salaries across the board. Pay issues have been a problem in the past, but have been mostly sporadic and negligible. Over the past three months, however, some staff have gone several weeks without pay, with many still owed payment to this day."
Guh, right before the holidays. Whatever happens to the club I hope the staff are able to find new jobs.
46
there is a stupid amount of Cosmos hate that happens on reddit. Having watched them play and having hated them for a long time, they also brought a great deal of good to the NASL, including being a damned good soccer team. This news is surprising and really depressing to read.
36
Honestly, as someone who has been a red bulls/metrostars fan for a while, it was never the Cosmos per say, it was their fans mostly. They were particularly insufferable when it came to Red Bull supporters (calling us corporate sellouts etc) and their place in the soccer landscape of America. The Borough Boys come to mind particularly. I hope they dont fold, but the people who own the team made many many mistakes.
53
I would simply ask that one not characterize whole fanbases - or even just whole supporters clubs - with douchebags on social media and shitty anecdotal interactions. No group of any sports team's fans is immune from having assholes in it. I am a fervent Cosmos supporter and still root for RBNY in competitions they're not both in, and in fact have great admiration for your fanbase.
34
Absolutely fair. I'm sorry to read this news today. It sucks and I don't know what else to say besides that I hope your club can pull through.
8
Should be getting upvotes for this. Fair assessment.
1†
The Cosmos and the NASL represent instability. When people around here hate on the Cosmos, they're really projecting their insecurity about the state of soccer in the US. I really don't think the hate they receive is truly malicious, they're just a lightning rod.
38
I agree with this assessment, whether I think it's fair or not in some areas. Aside from a very small minority from whom it's just basic vitriol, the vibe in all conversations I have about the Cosmos - positive or negative - is that of just general concern for one's own club and North American soccer overall.
22
Its not that they hate the Cosmos, they just hate the ownership.
8
Oh are we talking about the Chicago Fire now??
-1
including being a damned good soccer team
Here's the problem: in most countries, this is pretty much the main requirement for being a viable soccer property. We need to really digest what it means for US soccer that being a good soccer team means fuck all.
3†
Even a good soccer team needs to be well-run off the pitch. I don't know any Cosmos fans would who say their club did that.
Gio Savarese managed to paper over a whole lot of bad decisions.
12
Absolutely.
But we also have bad soccer teams - poorly run with regard to on field quality, bad attendance figures, and low revenue - parked in D1.
I'm not claiming cosmos were well run, but I am claiming they should have the opportunity to be sunk by their poor management exclusively.
-5
No, we have one team in D1 that's consistently poorly run. The fact that you can't admit that speaks volumes.
5
I'm not claiming cosmos were well run, but I am claiming they should have the opportunity to be sunk by their poor management exclusively.
And they were. It was their fault that they couldn't come up with a stadium solution. It was their decision not to market their club. If they fold, you will be able to trace it back to their own bad business decisions.
Good point about the bad MLS clubs, but that serves to highlight the problem with the NASL's business model. MLS made a big mistake getting involved with Chivas, but they recognized it and fixed it. And nobody seriously believes that the Chicago Fire would be allowed to repeatedly bounce pay checks with impunity.
2
[deleted]
1
If we have bad soccer teams that are poorly run parked in D1 then it should no problem for you to gather 20 owners and create a D1 league that will blow MLS out of the water with the " LAhammer soccer model ". Right?
0
Here's the problem: in most countries, this is pretty much the main requirement for being a viable soccer property.
A lot of those teams also operate in debt or close to it. You can't get away with that too long in the U.S.
3
A lot of those teams also operate in debt or close to it.
Indeed.
You can't get away with that too long in the U.S.
Then we should stop the "top league" talk.
-4
Yes, because of all the debt the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB need to become top leagues. You are such a ridiculous Eurosnob idealist.
6
Nobody's saying that we're there now.
1
As a Philly fan I enjoy watching any NYC team lose. I don't enjoy watching a club go under and fail in this way. I just wish they were failing in more of a Browns type of a way.
1
[deleted]
0
yeah and that's stupid too.
1
Jesus fucking christ. Between them and the Isles, can't I have one team that doesn't make me want to die.
32
Hope you're not a Jets fan too.
9
Them and Purdue. I've been numb to football for a long time.
5
First, just wanted to say that Dave Martinez and Jake Nutting have been doing really good work on NASL/Cosmos coverage over at EoS.
I can't say I'm surprised, our pubic operations haven't exactly portrayed a team that intends to take the field in 2017, from last season's on-pitch budget cuts to, as the article touches on:
While that may be surprising to some, keep this in mind: while other professional teams began their 2017 season ticket campaign in August, the Cosmos haven’t even begun selling tickets for next year. In fact, they aren’t even taking deposits. The club has maintained for months that they will engage ticket sales once a venue is selected. However, to not even accept deposits sounds alarms about the team’s long-term viability.
That venue hasn't been selected either, which is all the more concerning. And now this piece goes into much more detail.
Throw all the political bullshit and opinions about "the Cosmos and MLS" and all the nonsense out the window: I just don't want to lose my club. At this point, I'm expecting to.
30
We've gone back and forth over the years, but I hate reading stuff like this about your team. Hopefully it will all turn around soon for the smos
5
Cosmos: helping fuck up the NASL since the 1970's.
28
I think the league's change in tact and the Cosmos' entrance overlap far too much to be coincidence, but the Cosmos don't deserve the entirety (or even majority) of the blame for the wheels falling off.
11
Absolutely not, I'm mostly joking since the death of the original NASL can be attributed to the Cosmos and their signings. The NASL is a league that was in that weird spot of not an official minor league but not the top tier, and it hurt them. I'm glad we're getting out, but I also feel like us being confirmed for MLS hurt the league.
5
the death of the original NASL can be attributed to the Cosmos and their signings
I mean, the scapegoating of that death can
5
It's just such a tired trope.
3
Welp, we got about 30 comments in without it. Good night everyone.
-7†
30 comments is really good, IMO. I would've guessed 10 or fewer.
8
I mean, it's better than I expected
5
Whoa, interesting tweets from @NipunChopra
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803271475927007232
1 Here are the details I couldn't share about my @NYCosmos tweets on Thursday. My source says it's ok now after the @EmpireOfSoccer story -
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803271744601456640
2 An unnamed USL Club was offered 3 Cosmos players by agents, with the news that Cosmos' future was uncertain.
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803272304633544704
3 One of those players is a starter, and 2 bit-part players for Cosmos. I was fairly skeptical of the news.in fact, tbh, I initially
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803272496539541504
4 Questioned the motives of my source (which I am embarrassed to admit). But, getting past that, I was left w/ info that players had
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803272876828872704
5 Been offered, although I did not know , as @EmpireOfSoccer , reports that they were having financial trouble, too.
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803273060270960640
6 Was told at the time that Cosmos would NOT join #USL if #NASL folded. I think that that is still true.
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803273383072907264
7 My source tells me that #USL is now preparing to accept remaining #NASL teams as early as next year. I remain somewhat skeptical of that
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803273556062781440
8 But, the only thing I know for sure is that I know literally nothing. And my source has been right all along. So, fuck my skepticism.
Edit: Added content for those that can't view these.
Edit2: More from @NipunChopra
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803331480999051265
1 Was just informed by a different source that @NYCosmos may be done in 2 weeks. Additionally, Bill Peterson wants to posit a merger
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803331766052356096
2 between USL and NASL; which now USL do not want to do (understandably, as they hold all the cards at this point, IMO).
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803332051311202304
3 Peterson would like USSF / @sunilgulati to broker this merger. But USL only interested in a few of remaining, viable #NASL clubs.
https://twitter.com/NipunChopra7/status/803333164668174337
4 One word of caution - this was information given to me indirectly. But, this particular source was right about USSF D2/D3 sanctions.
27
Was told at the time that Cosmos would NOT join #USL if #NASL folded. I think that that is still true.
Seamus you piece of shit.
24
Seamus you piece of shit.
You guys deserve so much better. I have hopes that if the NASL does fold, the USL will welcome the Cosmos with new ownership, essentially forcing a sale.
20
Yup.
Get new ownership and management in there, and there's a nice warm seat at the USL table with the Cosmos name on it.
Until then, nope.
3
Sounds like a win-win. The supporters get to keep their club, in a stable league, and with the owners the deserve.
2
Seamus O'Brien just last year
“What do I think we will look like in, say, five years’ time?” O’Brien said, seated in one of the executive boxes overlooking the 12,000-seat stadium prior to the match. “I think we will be playing in our own stadium, in a league of 18 to 20 teams, and we will be competing at the highest level in this country.”
14
Where is the vodka, I need it
13
I know you aren't a USL fan, but I hope new owners could carry it to the USL and get the stadium situation settled. It's not ideal for you but the whole of US Soccer is so fluid at the moment that who knows what it will look like in ten years. People losing their clubs is the worst though, that isn't how we build the sport here.
4
I can't read these at work. I don't know if I want to read them, but if someone could transcribe/copy & paste, you would receive a most grateful upvote from me.
EDIT: Thanks u/choch2727!
12
Sure, they are from Nipun
- Here are the details I couldn't share about my @NYCosmos tweets on Thursday. My source says it's ok now after the @EmpireOfSoccer story -
- An unnamed USL Club was offered 3 Cosmos players by agents, with the news that Cosmos' future was uncertain.
- One of those players is a starter, and 2 bit-part players for Cosmos. I was fairly skeptical of the news.in fact, tbh, I initially
- Questioned the motives of my source (which I am embarrassed to admit). But, getting past that, I was left w/ info that players had
- Been offered, although I did not know , as @EmpireOfSoccer , reports that they were having financial trouble, too.
- Was told at the time that Cosmos would NOT join #USL if #NASL folded. I think that that is still true.
- My source tells me that #USL is now preparing to accept remaining #NASL teams as early as next year. I remain somewhat skeptical of that
- But, the only thing I know for sure is that I know literally nothing. And my source has been right all along. So, fuck my skepticism.
- Last thing - Cosmos fans, I'm with you. You are a credit to this league. I'm sorry things are playing out this way.
9
Thanks!
5
- Here are the details I couldn't share about my @NYCosmos tweets on Thursday. My source says it's ok now after the @EmpireOfSoccer story -
- An unnamed USL Club was offered 3 Cosmos players by agents, with the news that Cosmos' future was uncertain.
- One of those players is a starter, and 2 bit-part players for Cosmos. I was fairly skeptical of the news.in fact, tbh, I initially
- Questioned the motives of my source (which I am embarrassed to admit). But, getting past that, I was left w/ info that players had
- Been offered, although I did not know , as @EmpireOfSoccer , reports that they were having financial trouble, too.
- Was told at the time that Cosmos would NOT join #USL if #NASL folded. I think that that is still true.
- My source tells me that #USL is now preparing to accept remaining #NASL teams as early as next year. I remain somewhat skeptical of that
- But, the only thing I know for sure is that I know literally nothing. And my source has been right all along. So, fuck my skepticism.
- Last thing - Cosmos fans, I'm with you. You are a credit to this league. I'm sorry things are playing out this way.
Can't agree more with that last one.
4
Thanks #3!
4
edited.
I don't know if I want to read them
:(
2
- My source tells me that #USL is now preparing to accept remaining #NASL teams as early as next year. I remain somewhat skeptical of that
Man...
9
Really that is a good thing. I think it would be best for all involved to come back together, especially if USL gets the D2 status they're after. USL seems to have a better infrastructure, and adding clubs that have shown a little more stability like Indy and Carolina, along with some promising teams like Jacksonville, PRFC, and San Francisco will only add to the league's credibility. The regional structure would help all of those teams even more.
9
promising teams like Jacksonville :/
3
lol you've been relegated to promising...
5
My source tells me that #USL is now preparing to accept remaining #NASL teams as early as next year. I remain somewhat skeptical of that
Hopefully, USL will bring Carolina, Edmonton, Indy 11, Jacksonville, Miami, Puerto Rico and San Francisco in. Rayo OKC could be left aside. As for Fort Lauderdale and NYC, put them on hold for one year, help them find solutions to their problems then make them join USL for 2018.
4
between USL and NASL; which now USL do not want to do (understandably, as they hold all the cards at this point, IMO
3 Peterson would like USSF / @sunilgulati to broker this merger. But USL only interested in a few of remaining, viable #NASL clubs.
I am confused. Isn't that essentially the same thing?
1
There's a pretty big difference between a merger, where both leagues would have input into the final form, and the USL picking up on its own terms just the NASL teams it wants.
1
Can we start fading the NASL flairs on here?
22
hey! We don't fade the MLS flairs on our sub, now do we?
4
^^because ^^MLS ^^isnt ^^going ^^anywhere
23
We still don't fade your Mutiny, Fusion or Chivas flair
9
It's because Chivas flair is a myth.
11
You should
10
Too soon.
6
I'm sorry, who are you again?
0
[deleted]
1
Well this is a bummer. Hopefully they're just trimming down to operate at a lower level for a bit instead of shutting their doors. Without the Cosmos I really can't see NASL holding on too much longer.
18
Isn't that kinda the problem? Its a league that lives and dies on one team. Thats not a great business model for a league.
1
It definitely isn't, but that wasn't always their business model (it's just come to that in recent times) and doesn't make the situation any less disappointing. In my opinion, the more soccer in North America the better. A team or league dying is always a sad thing.
2
imagine that. A team that died due to an unstable model that they contributed towards; comes back and suffers the same fate. Who could ever see that coming?
It sucks for all the players and staff, but I hope this is the death blow to the NASL. The 2nd level of the pyramid needs to be the USL with any financially viable NASL teams merged into it. Don't need two leagues competing for 2nd tier status with one full of delusional thoughts of challenging for first tier.
16
imagine that. A team that died due to an unstable model that they contributed towards; comes back and suffers the same fate. Who could ever see that coming?
Those of us who have been pointing this out for years are accused of being haters who want to see the team/league fail, because apparently predicting something is the same as rooting for it to happen....
7
It's almost as though vague conceptions of "models" is nothing but ideological bullshit that has nothing to do with the team in question just plain not getting the stadium it needed built.
-6
Or the team in question failing to come up with a Plan B once it was clear that their hoped-for solution was not going to materialize.
2
How ironic would it be if people who have been shitting on one model for years despite the fact that it's actually working declared models to be "nothing but ideological bullshit" when their alternate model proved to be a complete failure....
1
people who have been shitting on one model for years
You basically don't even read my posts do you
0
David Beckham to aisle NY3, David Beckham to aisle NY3
13
Wasn't NY and LA the only two places he couldn't use his expansion discount?
11
That's my understanding. MLS wasn't completely dense when they agreed to that.
9
True. But hey, MLS could cut a break and kill two birds with one stone here.
5
I doubt RBNY and NYCFC would agree to that.
1
Maybe not immediately. But it sure sounds great as a long term strategy.
1
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see Miami FC jumping on board with Beckham with this news.
1
I've been thinking about this news for the past few hours, wanting to not jump in with my opinion immediately because it's a complicated situation. I feel really sorry for Cosmos fans. Whatever this means for US Soccer, it absolutely sucks to lose your team and many of you have been rooting for them on and off for your whole lives. If the team dies, it will be a loss, no question.
When the NASL was rebooted a few years ago, I was torn. I thought on one hand it was great to pay homage to our past and bring back some of these identities that, for better or worse, are retro and cool for a lot of people. On the other hand, I thought it was an awful silly venture to have a free-spending second division with this completely different business model sitting in between our first and third divisions which more or less operate in concert. With television being so much of the determining factor in other teams' success throughout the world, I thought it was unlikely that any US second division team, even the Cosmos, would generate enough of that income to compete on the level of MLS teams, which was their stated goal.
At the same time, USL was being reimagined. Now here was a league that was willing to launch and host both independent teams along with MLS reserve sides, and would serve as a good way to test market viability and coordinated marketing opportunities through the leagues main office, similar to how MLS operates. It seemed at the time that they were investing a ton of energy into the offices of USL, creating a backbone for new teams to use as they launched. USL as a league seemed much more interested in working with teams and ownership groups to create a system that worked for a vast majority of the teams.
They were each trying to solve problems they saw with US Soccer five years ago. NASL wanted to change how the business of soccer is conducted in this country to a financially open, high-risk, high-reward structure where the only limit to your capabilities is the money you're willing to invest in the team. This isn't a bad thing. MLS could stand to loosen up over the next few years and substantially increase investment in the on-the-field product. Where NASL went wrong was thinking that they'd be able to jump to D1 status, when all of the indicators pointed at continued and sustained growth of MLS.
USL ran with the understanding that MLS will continue to be the country's D1 league. They've been transparent about USL being a path to MLS, especially with STL, SAC and FCC all looking more and more likely to make the jump in the next few years. They're trying to emulate MLS as a league that started up from scratch and still exists despite years of disinterested investors and cheap local TV deals. In many ways, USL is ahead of where MLS was 10 years ago in that they're investing money on the fan experience, marketing, and player facilities. FC Cincy and Sac Republic fans don't care that they're playing in D3, they care that the games they attend are entertaining and give them space to be grassroots supporters and support a pro soccer team.
USL going D2 should only help the independent teams increase their profile. They've put in a lot of work on the business end, and it shows in their new look and healthy expansion.
As for the Cosmos...for me, the Cosmos brand is inextricably linked to US Soccer in the 70's. I think of astroturf, painted fields, countdown clocks, shootouts, all of the Americanisms that we ran with in a league that burned too hot too fast 40 years ago. They've been, for better or worse, the scapegoat and most visible reminder of soccer's first great success and failure in this country. I would love to see them play in USL, but if they absolutely cannot settle for that, then casting off the weight of their legacy might let us completely move on from that history. But that's not ideal for me, and I'd hate it for the fans.
11
When the NASL was rebooted a few years ago, I was torn. I thought on one hand it was great to pay homage to our past and bring back some of these identities that, for better or worse, are retro and cool for a lot of people. On the other hand, I thought it was an awful silly venture to have a free-spending second division with this completely different business model sitting in between our first and third divisions which more or less operate in concert.
Here's what kills me: it didn't have to be that way. We could have had a brash, freewheeling second division that paid homage to the sport's 1970s legacy and worked with the other divisions to ensure the steady, sustainable growth of soccer in this country.
The NASL instead decided to set themselves up as a second D1, inexorably competing directly with MLS for fans, sponsors, advertising revenue, broadcast contracts, attention, and in a hundred other ways large and small. That was insane, and that alone is the cause of their apparent downfall.
Every other bad decision - the unsustainable growth, letting bad ownership groups buy in, challenging existing soccer clubs in their own markets, spiraling costs for clubs that can't sustain them, they all tie back to that one fatal hubris.
I hope that the clubs can be salvaged. I hope that the league's name and logo can be salvaged (for the historical value and because it's just plain great). But the business model, and the reckless ambition behind it, very much needs to be put out of its misery.
1
What a nightmare for their fans. To go from victory to this. Given their difficulties in finding a venue for their championship game, it's not surprising.
10
Reminds me of Rochester last year...
3
Me, too. Except the USL stepped in and took over the club until better owners could be found and the club could be saved. The NASL has shown no such inclination.
3
NASL has done this for clubs in the past... including Minnesota which people forget.
3
Good point. And it worked better than anyone could have hoped.
But that was under David Downs as Commissioner. And before the Cosmos joined. The NASL is a different animal these days.
2
Yeah, just too many leaks in the dingy this year.
1
NASL Board has to come out of their next meeting with some sort of plan. I do not think "oh, we'll just keep expanding" is viable.
8
The only plan that is viable short-term to stop the bleeding is to cap costs somehow and have offsets at the league level something the ideologues who continue to support NASL would go crazy about.
15
Oops, doesn't that sound like MLS? Can we all just agree that at this point, the only viable structure for soccer in US is exactly what MLS provides?
12
Oops, doesn't that sound like MLS? Can we all just agree that at this point, the only viable structure for soccer in US is exactly what MLS provides?
There is a big difference between capping costs and having everything being centrally owned by the league.
1†
Not when that structure allowed the league to weather some pretty shitty storms.
6
Appeasing a minority of their fanbase is the least of their problems right now.
9
The only plan that is viable short-term to stop the bleeding is to cap costs somehow
It's like raiaiin on your wedding day....
3
Merger should be on the table. Joining a established minor league where you can limit travel cost would help. Plus more variety of teams to play.
1
Merger may be too generous a word at this point. That contemplates some sort of give and take. At this point it looks like USL holds all the cards and any NASL clubs who want to remain operating have to join under their conditions.
12
I'd like to see the eventual USL division 2 league take the NASL brand - this logo is too cool to be allowed to die.
2†
No nasl just needs to die. Leave it usl so there's no association.
5
I just hope if a "merger" happens, USL doesn't force affiliation on any NASL teams that can afford to remain independent. USL needs more independent/unaffiliated teams and if NASL folds the silver lining IMO is adding those teams makes USL a better league.
2
Affiliation is not required in USL. A lot of independent teams have agreements to take 2-3 MLS players on loan during a season, but FC Cincinnati for example doesn't even do that. We have absolutely zero ties to any MLS team.
The spectrum of affiliation on USL:
-
Fully owned and operated II side - NYRBII
-
fully owned and operated by MLS but in a different market with different branding - Bethlehem Steel
-
Independent owned team runs business side, MLS team runs the soccer side (minor league baseball model) - RIo Grande Valley
-
independent team with an agreement to take 2-3 players on loan - Charleston, Rochester
-
fully independent team with no affiliation to MLS - FC Cincinnati.
14
I don't think affiliation is mandatory in USL. Why would USL force incoming NASL teams to do so?
8
Has USL forced any teams to affiliate?
3
Hmm, what do you think the name would cost in a fire sale? RBNYII could do a rebrand!
7
Somehow I just don't see the energy drink company going for that one. However, if MLS were to acquire the name we could see a third NY MLS team down the road. Stadium issues aside, there's no reason why that market that size couldn't support 5 MLS teams...look at London!
5
London only has five clubs in the Premier League. New York City has a total of eleven top-level clubs spanning the five most popular leagues in the country. You really can't begin to compare the two.
6
The total number of teams of the other major leagues in NY is not the way to guage demand or lack of demand for pro soccer in NY. Population and demographics matter most. If Brooklyn was its own city it would be the 4th largest city in the U.S. with over 2.6M people. How many of those 2.6M are immigrants, expats, and/or soccer fans generally? Soccer is the world's game even more than it is the game of traditional American sports-talk radio, ESPN-watching type sports fans.
-1
New York has 2 NBA teams, 2 NFL teams, 2 MLB, and 3?(I don't follow hockey too much someone correct me on this)NHL teams. Plus, 2 MLS teams.
So NY actually has 11 teams, not counting the cosmos.
How many pro big league teams does London have?
3
If you count NJ, yes NHL has 3 NY teams (Devils, Rangers, Islanders).
1
3 NHL teams.
New Jersey Devils, New York Islanders, New York Rangers.
All share the same TV networks (MSG/MSG Plus/MSG Plus 2).
Makes for easy cross-promotion.
1
Red Bull was going to give RBNYII a different brand at the start. I don't recall all the details, but I believe it was going to be Empire SC, and the team and the ESC couldn't come to an agreement.
3
Red Bull Montclair has to happen.
1
However, if MLS were to acquire the name we could see a third NY MLS team down the road.
I would go for that. But if I was MLS, I would buy the brand then wait a couple of years before creating a third NY club to let times for the 2 others to become stronger. Anyway, there are plenty of other markets to fill.
1
- Cosmos fans are really dedicated to the minor league, could be a great opportunity to build a stand alone minor league product, would obviously still have the Red Bull logo on the jersey, so the energy drink overlords could get their marketing in.
- lol, comparing London to NYC... OK.. then get your stadium deal done and sell some seats!
-2†
[deleted]
1
It would certainly reflect the actual, real-world "brand value" of the Cosmos to have them reborn as RBNY's reserves team ...
2†
How nice of them to trap Gio into this.
6
Actually makes a lot of sense for them to push hard for a transfer fee for a coach, knowing cash flow is suffering.
4
Ya, in a selfish "if i'm going down you're going down with me" sort of way.
9
I see it more as a "We're not in a financial position to be giving away valuable assets" sort of way.
1
I had the same thought. They really would be so dead without him. Like he has at least been a life jacket while they float aimlessly in shark infested water. In a hurricane. In the middle of the ocean. In the dark.
2
The more we learn, the better we realize he is.
He shielded his players from all the mess, made sure they were taken care of when others were being stiffed. No wonder he gets the best from his men.
3
I wonder how an anticipated move to Brooklyn next year will affect this situation.
There's definitely a large market in South Brooklyn that's REALLY far away (over an hour each way) from both RBA and Yankee Stadium that could do with a team at Coney Island.
If there's a chance of survival for the Cosmos it's there. Three teams in the area would make for some interesting and very marketable games too.
6
That's the thing, you're absolutely right about the South Brooklyn location. But the fact that it hasn't been announced yet, especially when it's been widely assumed for almost two years, is ominous. :\
6
No announcement = no deal in place when it comes to stadiums and teams. It's just too important for the financial future of the team. ticket salespeople need to be hammering the phones constantly.
2
Agreed. They're not even taking deposits for the 2017 season. If they had a deal in place, even if they couldn't announce it for some reason, they'd have started months ago.
My NYCFC seats for next year are already more than 1/4 paid off. I'll be over a third of the way done by the time the MLS Cup is played.
1
Damn, I hope it happens, would be a great solution for everyone and bring the game to a community that's under served. It's shitty for fans who might lose their team and employees who get fired right before the holidays.
1
I want this to happen so bad. I would try my absolute hardest to get to every game I can if they moved to MCU.
1
Hey, late pay is our thing
Cosmos vs Strikers: the Dollarless Derby!
The fact that Bill Edwards loaned the Strikers cash to put on a game against the Cosmos just became so much funnier