How are beams and melee hits supposed to counter Dva if Dva can just fly out of their range?

Discussion

TL:DR below, main points in bold

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This is the one issue I have with people suggesting that Reinhardt, Zarya, Winston, Mei, or Symmetra act as Dva counters. If Dva is ever being pressured by any of these heroes, she can simply fly away. Even with a fully charged Zarya/Symm or a freeze from Mei, Dva has the health and shields to get some damage in and fly away.

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Of the above characters:

- Zarya has no mobility options

- Reinhardt is limited to horizontal mobility while Dva can easily reach high ground

- Mei has vertical mobility with wall, but Dva can fly out of reach horizontally

- Symmetra might be able to chase with teleporter, but the Dva can fight back and burst down Symmetra with Micro Missiles

- Winston could chase with leap but can really only tickle Dva (especially if the Dva has armor left). Moreover, Winston's leap is on and 6 second cooldown while Dva's booster's are on a 5 second cooldown, so the Dva has access to more movement options over the same time period

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You could say that Dva counters exist in CC preventing her escape (hook, flash bang, shield bash, hack, etc) but relying on CC to counter a character seems flawed as the opponent can exert excellent position to remain effective (and not be countered).

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It's for these reasons that I think Dva is always in the meta. She's not oppressive, but she's never a bad pick because she can never be truly punished (she's always effective).

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Although I'm not a game designer, I'd still like to offer suggestions to promote discussion. Below I have 3 possible fixes:

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  1. Allow Beam/Melee heroes to more properly counter Dva: increase the cool down on boosters to 7s; slightly reduce the speed/range of boosters - It seems weird to me that Winston has a leap that locks him into a specific trajectory and arc on a 6 second cool down, while Dva can move in any trajectory on a 5 second cool down. Moreover Dva always has an on demand shield that allows her to shoot while shielding and moving. Drastically reducing Dva's mobility should allows beam heroes and melee characters to reliably deal with an out of position Dva like they're meant to. On a side note, Dva's ability to stall (yaaay...) is reduced
  2. Allow ranged heroes to more properly counter Dva: have Defense Matrix deplete 50% faster when absorbing damage - This allows Defense Matrix to remain a shield alternative, but now Dva players have to be more cautious when spamming defense Matrix. Moreover, while Dva remains strong against high burst damage heroes (widow, hanzo, ashe, hog, reaper), characters that continuously fire bullets or small pockets of damage (soldier, sombra, bastion, tracer, mecree, torb, genji) now have more incentive to shoot at Defense Matrix (introducing some counter play)
  3. Reduce her effectiveness: nerf the damage output of Fusion Cannons and Micro Missiles by 15%; increase the cool down of boosters to 6s - If you're gonna keep Dva without a true counter, then she can't be that mobile and effective. She fulfills multiple roles and even goes so far as outperforming other off tanks in their roles (ex: better than hog at peeling). Reducing damage and mobility will force the Dva to commit more time to a specific task (peel/aggression/damage absorption/chaos). This is my least favorite suggestions as I feel that it "waters down" Dva's game play experience

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TL:DR - To summarize, Dva is not oppressive but she can never truly be punished, which is why her pick rate is so high. Blizzard stated beams as being a counter to Defense Matrix, but Dva's mobility allows her to ignore this. I offer suggestions to address her lack of counter play and/or effectiveness, but I'm not a game designer and am mostly using this post to highlight issues

Posted Dec 11, 2018, 2:38 AM UTC

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royy2010•

You can’t compare the beam heroes to d.va in a 1v1 scenario. If you do then of course she will fly away.

In the middle of a fight a d.va might not have her boosters but all the beam heroes will still have their left click.

18
InkeyisOP•

But with a 5 second cool down, I think her boosters are almost too quick to come off cool down. Sure you can't look at things in a vacuum, but most of my points come with the context that Dva's been widely picked for a long time now.

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edit: I guess people don't want to explain why this is faulty thinking and would rather just downvote

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AKC97•

Isn’t that DM nerf just turning DM into a regular shield?

Takes damage -> reduces DM duration

Shoot rein shield -> reduces shield duration?

I don’t think DVA’s DM should be touched. Reducing the time it takes to get DM up would make it impossible to react to enemy attacks or ults. It would become less of a skill to manage and prepare to use on high value cool-downs and more of a short burst absorption tool.

I think her mobility could change a bit. I think increasing the cool-down could make her a bit more counter-able.

12
InkeyisOP•

Not really. With the suggested nerf, Dva matrix is still time based and can absorb as much damage as possible (theoretically infinite). The window to absorb just becomes tighter.

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But like I mentioned in my post, it's only one suggestion, and I can see why people don't wanna touch DM

1
ConcaveNips•

Dva is the most picked hero in the game for like over a year for a reason. That reason is defense matrix is broken.

0
XuddaBury 'em deep — Master (3662) | Florida Mayhem•

Ehhh no, it’s not any one reason, it’s a combination of many reasons. I don’t think DM specifically makes her busted, cause she can fly on a short cd, shoot while flying, do burst damage, block basically anything, live indefinitely, etc

Best way to nerf DVa imo is take some HP away from her and raise her booster cd by a second. Keep her base strength intact but make her easier to punish. Less HP and a slightly less reliable escape should have DVa players feeling a lot more pressure. Another good nerf is remove demech and make her just die when she runs out of mech hp. Pilot DVa can stay for her bomb to give it some risk

4
ConcaveNips•

It’s not the hero that’s op itself. It’s what she does for her team that’s broken. It’s defense matrix bruh.

0
Blackout2388Boston Uprising•

Please for the love of god, let me see DM better. That shit is nearly invisible in a team fight. At least let me outplay by aiming at someone else.

3
Domeric_Bolton•

Not necessarily for the purpose of countering D.Va, but I'd like to see beam weapons on a flanker or maybe even a sniper (like the Focus Rifle from Halo).

9
fauxpolitikNew York Excelsior | Houston Outlaws•

Long range beam sniper I like it

10
socialfaller•

You have to convert Widow if you go that route I think. Two of them would be terrible.

1
InkeyisOP•

Yea, I'd like to see a railgun shooter

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PANTERlA#DELETEBRIG — Philadelphia Fusion | New York Excelsior•

A railgun would be a projectile weapon though...

7
InkeyisOP•

My b, I guess I was thinking of a railgun as a beam sniper

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PANTERlA#DELETEBRIG — Philadelphia Fusion | New York Excelsior•

They are made to look like beam weapons often so I cant blame you.

6
TheChknNuggetGod•

Laser rifle boom

5
InkeyisOP•

That would be a cool character to see imo

1
Lemonsqueasy•

Just give mei and symmetra a jetpack 4head

5
InkeyisOP•

The answer was in front of us the whole time lolol

1
T_T_N•

How does Brig counter Tracer when Tracer can just blink out of Brig's range?

Its called zoning and you can be countered without ever being killed if you are zoned away from a position where you are effective.

2
InkeyisOP•

It's not zoning if there's no immediate threat tho. If a tracer IS caught in brig's range, the tracer gets one shot. If a Dva gets caught in the range of a beam, the Dva has plenty of time to react accordingly

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Edit: this post is also a response to Geoff calling beams a counter to Dva, when in reality, it's more of a minor check

1
T_T_N•

D.va is a tank, so while she isn't being 1 shot the moment she enters the range of beam/melee weapons she is left without damage mitigation in these situations. If anything, you could blame the heavy sustain present for why she isn't countered heavily enough by the beams.

1
InkeyisOP•

I hadn’t considered the heal buffs in making this post, but they definitely would have an effect in reducing the effectiveness of beams against Dva. Nano buff, Moira introduction, mercy ult becoming mass heal instead of mass Rez, Lucio’s improved healing since launch. Chip damage on Dva from beams no longer mean as much since it gets healed to quickly.

That being said, I don’t see a global heal nerf coming soon so I’m still personally for reducing Dva’s effectiveness or raising her counter play

1
ShaidarHaran93•

Define immediate, a fully charged Zarya demechs Dva in a little more than 3 seconds just by herself. That means that Dva has to play so that when she uses boosters she doesn't end up in Zarya's range or her mech is toast.

1
PositioningOTPGrandmaster (4317) | Netherlands•
  1. Go to trainingroom 2. Shoot a far away bot 3. Write down how much dmg she does 4. Shoot a bot nearby 5. Redo step 3. 6. Compare
1†
PositioningOTPGrandmaster (4317) | Netherlands•

Conclusion: IF you would buff things not able to be eaten by dva it would make much difference

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Hawkishhoncho•

The way you drop d.vas pickrate dramatically and make her seem way less op is to introduce new tank heroes that actually have controllable mobility. If all the tanks, only 3 have mobility. Winston gets a leap that is a nice predictable arc. Wrecking ball gets his grapple that only works when terrain is convenient and is also a nice convenient predictable circle/arc. D.va gets mobility that she can use anytime, and that she can use to spin and turn in any way she wants to, mid air and on a dime. Adding more tanks with mobility, and as good of mobility as d.va has, will really lower how often d.va is used and how op she seems, because the one thing she does better than any other tank by a mile, will no longer be unique to her

1
InkeyisOP•

I kinda don't wanna add more mobility creep into the game than there already is tho. You'll get to a point where non mobility heroes get overshadowed by a mile

1
Hawkishhoncho•

Yes, but that or nerfing dva’s existing mobility are really the only solutions I can see.

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InkeyisOP•

That’s why one of my possible fixes is to nerf Dva’s mobility

1