Source
r/LiverpoolFC•
SS1986

Let’s talk tactics (because I’m fed up of of transfer/squad-depth posts)

Two seasons ago, we relied on a fairly standard attack through the front three of Salah/Firmino/Mane. Last season, we locked up midfield and used our FB’s to provide an attacking option (presumably knowing that the opposition defence would focus on our potent front three). How (if at all) do you see our tactics changing this season (given that the opposition will now try and shut Robbo and TAA down as well)?

Anything to get off the subject of transfers.

Posted Jul 27, 2019, 12:12 PM UTC

156106
bbydonthurtme4667•

If Naby releases the kraken, he'll become our main creative player

167
SS1986OP•

OK, so who do you lose out of Gini, Hendo and Fab, bearing in mind they give the side DF balance and protect our 2 CB’s to give Trent and Robbo their freedom?

31
Fuey42•

Naby is going to be used as a back up left winger, in the mold of coutinho next season. In my opinion thats one of the main reasons that Klopp refuses to buy players, he has too many midfielders who are too versatile, he probably feels he doesn't need players who are specialists in a position.

This is only my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

52
gupibagha•

He looked crap on the left though. I hope he is played in the midfield.

43
Fuey42•

I wouldn't say crap, but yeah he is way better off on the left of a midfield 3.

26
Rijkaardvicijus•

Not that hot of a take, I wouldn’t be shocked if you were right.

7
EasterInCalgary•

Playing midfielders on the wing: sounds good, doesn't work.

4
ryan774•

I agree - we even saw some of this last year!

Many (on this sub and elsewhere) have called for us to buy a more traditional lw to rotate with mane. The few games he missed last season saw us often line up in more of a 442, with naby drifting in from the left side of midfield while attacking. I think Ox or even shaq could fulfill a similar role on the right as well. The nice thing about having versatile players is that we can tinker with our shape and approach based on who is fit or in form.

1
adarsh481•

I think Gini and Fab are irreplaceable. Gini has been ever present in Klopp’s squad and Fab is now undroppable. Hendo was out of contention last season after Fabinho was settled but his resurgence after Southampton and Keita’s injury means he played more in the last part of the season. So if Keita settles, we can see Fab, Gini and Keita mostly but our midfield does a lot of running so there’ll be a lot of rotation.

I don’t think tactically, there is going to be much change if Keita comes in. The huge difference will be that Keita and drive the ball from midfield and find that killer pass unlike other midfielders which can be a huge boost to our squad. Ox can give us the attacking thrust but Keita is quite unique with his tackling and pressing. His timing and understanding of positions is slightly better than Ox which gives him an edge over Ox if Klopp wants a more attacking midfielder.

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tacosmuggler99•

I think if he becomes what we were seeing at RB gini would be the guy moving into a super sub role

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dave1992•

Ox though, he should start over Naby in the more offensive role midfielder.

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[deleted]•

[removed]

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tiezalbo•

You play naby in the games against lower league sides that just play with a low block imo

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[deleted]•

[removed]

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Limabravo9•

There’s no reason Naby can’t do that as well, it’s not a difficult job.

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dave1992•

I don’t really agree with this.

He will compete with Ox as one of the more offensive midfielder, while the other two would be the more conservative ones (Fab, Hendo, Gini, Milner).

I think if Ox replicates his pre injury form he would bench Naby a lot of times.

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analog-guy•

I would think Ox is more likely to be that dude. The aggressive style he brings driving at a defense demands attention and opens things up for the front 3 or FBs pushing high.

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trasofsunnyvale•

Can't see the general game plan and style changing much, especially since we saw such a strong adaptation last season with more measured play and willingness to go long when under pressure (in the name of defense). It seems like a logical shift could be to play with more men in midfield if we find that the opposition is focusing more on wide areas. Could see Bobby dropping further back for this, as someone with more creative talent on the ball, but with nearly the same ability to endure the press as our mids.

However, at a certain point, you just can't stop fullbacks from essential being an extra body in the attack. There was a lot of talk of Klopp's style and tactics when he came in, but it has become clear to me that his real strength is in instilling a certain mentality and work rate in his players as well as ensuring the squad is at the absolute top level of fitness. When you have fullbacks doing full jobs on defense and attack, as well as mids and wingers doing the same, it simply cant be stopped, assuming you can take chances. Overload the wings, you get midfield runners without sacrificing a ton of defensive integrity. The opposite and you get the world's best fullbacks in attack (fight me) spending half the game on the edge of your box. Lose-lose the way I see it.

This style of course makes the team vulnerable to injuries, however, as it is quite difficult to replace the fullbacks, wingers, Bobby or mids.

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SS1986OP•

Interesting, I noticed Origi dropping deeper in the number 9 role during preseason, helping to regain possession in our half. Could be this.

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trasofsunnyvale•

Ah, cool, I hadn't noticed that with Origi in the preseason highlights. Sadly I haven't been able to see the full matches other than a couple of the games. But that makes sense. I think Klopp must believe that Origi can play in Firmino's style if he sanctioned signing him up for 5 more years. Pressing isn't his strength, at least yet, but he does hold up play well. With a bit more time I think he could become a decent presser. He clearly can finish and can play effectively on the wing, if not to Mane/Salah level.

Will be interesting to see if the younger guys get time and see how they play if they do. I have no clue how good Wilson or Brewster are at pressing, but would be very excited if it's a strength of theirs. I think that's the hardest skill to find in attackers.

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biffed_bower•

The overlooked aspect of our full backs is the space it leaves our inside forwards/wingers. If the opposition full backs/wide midfielders come out to shut down Robbo/TAA, that most likely gives an opportunity for Mane or Salah to go one on one with a defender in a deep position near the opposition's goal, which due to their ability they'll win most of the time.

My two cents idk

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trasofsunnyvale•

Absolutely. It's the idea behind overloading certain areas of the pitch, and you're exactly right. It works perfectly since both Mane and Salah (and even Origi and Shaq, if played there) are all as comfortable, if not moreso, playing through the middle. So you get their 1v1 skill, pace and other abilities wide on the counter and then let a fullback take over their position in the opponent's third and they get to move inside where they are a better goal threat, and where they can overload the CBs and DM.

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biffed_bower•

Yep, the amount of times I see Salah starting in a wide position and all of sudden gets the ball where he's 1v1 with a CB.

This season I'm hoping to see more from either ox or naby breaking beyond midfield too. It's why and I know this is quite a unpopular opinion on this sub, that I'm quite comfortable with our lack of signings cause I think them two will make a huge impact this season. But I can't see them starting together unless Klopp goes all 17/18.

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flaviu0103•

This is an interesting topic and for the last few days I was contemplating this same aspect.

Last season , our goal scoring opportunities came from these situations :

  1. Gegenpress into through ball or our front 3 combining.
  2. We control the game and pass around with our center backs and at one point one of those launches a long diagonal ball to one of our fullbacks. The fullback combines, finds space and crosses.
  3. Long ball to Salah on the right flank. Salah beats the offside trap, outpaces the defender and shots or provides assist.
  4. Corners

Some things I would like for us to add to our repertoire or do it more frequently would be:

  1. Passes over the defense. Like the one from Fabinho to Mane in the 3-1 win over ManU. Both Salah and Mane are able to do quality diagonal runs and we should be capitalizing on that.

  2. Long shots from the edge of the box.

​

Regarding systems I like our 4 3 3 way better than an 4 2 3 1 because with our system both Salah and Mane can get more narrow and it suits them better + gives space for our full-backs to overlap.

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SS1986OP•

Nice, long shots are definitely missing from our game, but since Coutinho left, I can’t think of anyone who might be given permission to try it. Again, I think Robbo and TAA had a couple long-range efforts in the CL Final, I remember noticed it being rare then.

17
Count_Blackula1•

Fact of the matter is none of our players are adept enough at long shots to provide a significant threat.

10
OHHECANPOSTONE•

At least one of our players CAN HIT ONE

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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SS1986OP•

I think Klopp prefers to use the ball a bit better, working it forward to the front three rather than risk losing the possession you’ve worked for.

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gupibagha•

It should be a threat though, to keep the defenders guessing the next move. That's why I hope Keita and AOC play regularly in the midfield and try a long shot every once in a while.

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trasofsunnyvale•

I think you're right, especially since we have such 1v1 talent, and forwards who can generally withstand being pressed hard. In that scenario, you only need to be smart, keep the ball and wait for them to overcommit and leave space elsewhere. If you look across the squad, one of the most universal traits is that our players are press-resistent. Also, the team clearly practices this a lot, and the players seem to love working it. At least, the rondos always seem enthusiastic in the videos!

1
WH6TSINANAME•

https://youtu.be/iRgk3efbkGA

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ImGrumps•

Ox should be given a green light.

4
mosalahdosa127•

I hated it when Coutinho would go for long shots when games weren't going well. It used to be a dead giveaway of frustration.

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dragonnest054•

If you actually see how we get crosses it's more of us using cbs and Trent pinging balls to the wingers and they give it back to the fullbacks to cross.

We also use quick balls and turns in midfield (from Trent or the cbs) to get isolated 3v2 or 2v2 situations. If you watch the game, we create chance after chance

Edit: Trent finds Salah not mane mane also helps us in midfield while Salah holds the line

3
fakebytheocean•

I think we are working on no 5. Fab seems very good at this and I feel like he did that often during his first matches with us. I guess when he got the DM role he couldn’t commit forward as much.

Anyway I’ve seen him do that more during preseason. Maybe he ans Hendo will switch places in game a few times.

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trasofsunnyvale•

I agree, and would also add that it's a specific plan against a specific opponent. It wouldn't work as well against sides that are playing deeper in defense, and aren't as concerned with pushing the line forward as the ball moves away from the box. It seems like a common tactic for the teams that often face compact, deep defenses. Barca have been doing this effectively for a while, as does City under Pep.

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trasofsunnyvale•

This is great, and I'd add the scenario of essentially our fullbacks operating as orchestrators against teams that sit back (or we pin back). It is essentially like playing on a small pitch, fully in the opponent's half. The fullbacks can then split like CBs (well, they're already split, since they're fullbacks) and a midfielder drops in and the three of them move the ball around looking for openings. Trent created so many chances with his long diagonals to Robbo, catching the defense giving up space before they shifted.

1
TequanSimba•

I think what’s most important is that this squad has had another year together under their belt. We have a relatively young group of lads still to reach their prime footballing years (Milner included). Last season we were also adapting to a new style of football & still managed an extremely successful campaign. So we still have levels to go up in terms of team cohesion & executing this new system more effectively.

We have players returning in the form of Ox, Rhian & Lallana coupled with the resurgence of Henderson further forward & the adaptation time needed for Keita, Shaqiri & Fabinho that will add further dimensions to our midfield system which involves linking the midfield to the front 3 more effectively. This will hopefully allow us to bridge the points gap with Man City as we will have added another monstrous attacking dimension to our play.

The experience most of this squad has gained from winning, making it to 2 European cup finals in 2 years & taking the premier league to the last day with 97 points is invaluable. Without making any major additions this squad has evolved over the last season akin to them all improving their fifa rating by +3 & team chemistry by like +5. (The only way I could easily describe it)

Everyone in this team can go up a gear which is exciting. In terms of tactics I think we generally keep things the same & we toy with the 4231 occasionally to get more forward thinking players on the pitch.

The worry now is just the injury concerns of the likes of Ox, Keita, Shaq & lallana as we need them firing for us to effectively go up a gear. But the positives are the depth we have in those areas so we can manage their game time. Ox & Keita are the explosive more direct midfield players we need, whereas shaq & lallana are the more crafty advanced creators who are comfortable on the ball in tight spaces & could be useful if they step up. (Lallana is also being trialled as a 6 which could be interesting against deep defences).

Excited to see how this squad has evolved & how klopp is going to utilise Ox & Keita. Wijnaldum himself has gone up gears & showing his class further forward for the Netherlands & for Liverpool. Joe Gomez is back, Matip is class now, Trent & robbo are a year older whilst already being the best fullbacks in the world, alisson has 3 golden gloves & 2 massive trophies in his back pocket, Van Dijk is half god & one of the favourites for ballon dor. Lovren used to be the best in the world & is our 4th choice cb but still a huge character in the dressing room. Origi is starting to catch fire. Fab is the best midfield destroyer & is only 24. Milner & Hendo are 2 of the most experienced lads in English football with hendo especially getting a huge monkey of his back. Salah & Manè have a healthy competition to be the best player in the world. Firmino had the heartbreak of the previous UCL final & World Cup & followed it up with a UCL final win & Copa America & now he’s on cloud 9. With Brewster, Wilson & Hoever knocking on the door.

Without changing much this team should be reaching new heights this next season which I can’t wait for.

Sorry for the essay, got too excited.

22
TheLastBaron90•

If they try to shut our wing-backs down they would leave space to our central midfielders to operate more freely. I really hope Keita and Ox remain healthy because in this scenario they will really flourish.

21
R3dbeardLFC•

Even Gini. He's creative and has great retention and control. Just gotta unleash a few from the edge of the box.

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TheLastBaron90•

I mentioned those two because they've had fitness issues and we've yet to see them at their best.

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g_aman•

By focusing a lot on our fullbacks, would the opposition also leave spaces for the front 3 to exploit?

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TheLastBaron90•

Occasionally, sure.

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bing_bing_b0ng•

I find it funny how this is being discussed like it’s some groundbreaking new tactic that’s going to change the way the team play. The way we attack now is based on Salah and mané drifting inside into dangerous areas and the fullbacks vacating that space, this is nothing new and it’s how I would say 60% of our goals came last season.

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TheLastBaron90•

True. I do wonder if Klopp and Lijnders have decided to change the plan to assure they don't get found out but it's been working fine. And it's really tough to shut down a team's wings completely, eventually the space will be there.

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trasofsunnyvale•

Yeah, it's a marquee of Liverpool under Klopp, I'd argue. There's a reason they spend time in training working on overloading areas of the pitch.

1
thyamklasic•

Great timing for the post OP. I can see Klopp focusing more on ways to break down teams that park the bus against us and more on maintaining the consistency throughout the season. Last Season, we were really great till the January - February period and a common thing during this period imo was that we lack ways to break teams down like West Ham, Leicester and the Scum when the parked the bus heavily. Another thing to work on would be the free kick defensive scheme. The offside trap we used last season ,though was really scary for us to watch, was effective but teams did find a way to get pass it like West Ham and Leicester. We also did have a couple of injuries that kind of reduce our depth a little so hopefully lesser injuries for the upcoming season.

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deatheaten•

I think VAR being there this season is one of the reasons behind the scary high line. I felt like we only really struggled with it early after Matip replaced Gomez after the Burnley but were fine after he adjusted.

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bing_bing_b0ng•

But there was no VAR

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GetYourDijkOut•

Far too many people seem to be expecting us to use Fab-Gini-Hendo as our midfield 3 going into the season. Looking at the games we played last season and the results with these 3 starting games I’m surprised so many think it’s our best midfield. I’d like to go in depth and do a longer write up but I’ve never done that sort of thing

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SS1986OP•

Those three are the most defensively-able (along with Milner), so Klopp uses them to a defensive back-up (it was this approach that frustrated Henderson, he told Klopp he wanted more attacking freedom). It’s not a case of ‘best’ midfield line-up, it’s more a case of ‘most suitable’ midfield line-up that doesn’t leave us exposed. I’d have Shaq as an AM in a heartbeat, but he doesn’t defend at all.

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GetYourDijkOut•

My point was that our results with these three starting and general performances haven’t been that great even in games we ended up winning. Too much reliance on creativity from fullbacks.

I understand where Klopp comes from regarding Shaqiri in a 4231 but when you look back around November/December, we had a string of brilliant performances in this formation

3
flaviu0103•

This is our most balanced midfield we have and probably works best against good opposition. This is because both Gini and Hendo are very good defensively and can cover for Robo and Trent.

What we usually do in the offensive stage , especially on the right flank, is Trent playing almost like a winger high up the pitch and Hendo drops bellow him like a defensive fullback.

Our most offensive midfield setup would be with Keita on the left and Ox on the right but I don't know how it would interact with our fullbacks because naturally both Naby and Ox gravitate more towards the edge of the box.

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GetYourDijkOut•

I'd actually argue that this midfield lacks any real balance during matches, three players who look to be playing two positions with a massive disconnect between midfield and attack.

Last season I look towards games in which the three played in midfield for 70+ minutes (most of which had all 3 starting) and it's clear we weren't great in any of the matches.

Everton (A), United (A), Napoli (A) even Spurs in the CL final we ended with 35% possession and a lack of attacking opportunities.

1†
Echiptian_King•

I'd like if Firmino didn't drop deep so much, with our more structured approach compared to 17/18 and prior I don't feel like it's necessary for him to be so deep constantly. We need him further forward scoring more goals. Not saying he should become a poacher though.

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SS1986OP•

But Firmino dropping deeper provides another channel for the transition - Bobby through the middle or Robbo/TAA on the wings. If Bobby stays up front, we only give ourselves the FB/WB option.

9
evilhomer450•

Although the 4-2-3-1 was used to get fabinho up to speed, having a fourth attacker made a massive difference when breaking down a parked bus. Someone like Shaq popping up in pockets of space and shooting vs united gave us a glimpse into what Ox and Naby can hopefully do this season.

3
ScottScott26•

We'll have 5 players attacked at all times like we did this season just gone. The full backs and the front 3. Teams will try and stop the deliveries coming in from the full backs and that means either doubling up on them or having a man staying close. What this does is it frees up others to create space. If they double team our fullbacks they leave men free either in the box or coming from deep. If they try and man mark our front 3 and fullbacks then we're good enough to create space in and around them

You won't see much change from last season, if any at all. We have a way of playing and it is very effective. Even when teams shut up shop we can now break them down which was an issue before. Man for man we're better than every team in the PL bar City (and they're on par with us)

2
not_a_morning_person•

I don’t think we’ll see much difference, just more variation. We have a few different settled systems now and I reckon Klopp will employ them on a case by case basis - particularly now we have Ox and Naby both settled and fit for the season.

2
Supkingz123•

interesting post but I have all faith in Klopp to turn it around. My only issue is when teams sat deep and we drew games as they hit us on counter and kt worked for them. Not saying all team who sat back actually got the draw but the ones which did. We really lacked in midfield. In the past when there so many body. a Coutinho 30 yarder screamer would sort it for us. Now we don't have player who can do it. Ox has it in his locker otherwise nobody does.

2
LooseCannon5•

We have seen teams struggle to defend against the front 3 and the fullbacks. We need the midfield now to step up and we would be even more of a nightmare.

Keita seemed to be improving before the injury so hopefully he will come back strong and get to his bundesliga form. Then we have ox coming back too who was fantastic in the second half of 17-18.

I think against weaker teams and especially at home we might see more attacking midfield line ups with only 1 of Fabinho, Hendo,Wij and Milner playing rather 2 or 3.

Plus theres always the possibilty of Hendo or Wij playing more offensively as Fabinho settles in as a lone defensive midfielder

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2
PeculiarPorridge•

Thanks for starting an interesting conversation. Been a while on this sub!

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[deleted]•

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bing_bing_b0ng•

City’s wide players play a completely different game to ours. Compare sterlings positioning and movement at the start of attacking phases to Manés

1
deatheaten•

I thought we were really good with indirect free kicks last season (especially wide) and we no doubt focused on it all with Ljinders and Klopp going on about second phase goals in that video. Statistically I think we were the best in the league or thereabouts with corners as well even though it never really felt that way tbh.

Would still like us to be a threat from direct free kicks too though. Iirc we only scored the one last year (Taa vs Watford). Shaqiri is great and Trent should improve but also guys like Ox and VVD are all decent from range.

In general though we are clearly focusing on dead ball situations (even hiring a throw in coach) so I am excited to see us scoring even more.

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redrumbum1•

Those second phase set piece goals have been a regular occurance in the recent friendlies as well, with Origi and Brewster esp deadly!

2
redrumbum1•

I expect to see way more rotations and closer scorelines (1-0, 2-1, etc) as we try to conserve energy through the season. Just like in Madrid, next season will see us happy to defend a lead and counter, which is the surest sign of the team's maturity and evolution.

In terms of formation, it will probably be similar to last season, with Klopp switching between 433 and 4231, for stronger and weaker opponents, respectively. With the 4231 I expect us to be fully camped in the opposition half while patiently probing and passing, as has been the case in some of the preseason games.

Another major point, which Klopp alluded to recently in the YT video with him and Llinders, is that our set pieces will continue to improve and be a major asset. Not just direct goals, but the second/third balls.

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fuschialantern•

Looking at some critical matches last season and even when Liverpool win, possession doesn't seem to count for much with the current setup. 2 DMs when playing teams that park the bus, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Keita or Ox or a new signing are needed to bring a proper through ball, and break through defensive lines. Since Liverpool are a team that likes to exploit space, the perfect counterbalance opposition strategy is when teams are entrenched. Liverpool didn't have enough creativity to beat Leceister, West Ham or Utd even though we dominated in possession. That's when we need a great squad player to come in and affect the game.

73% at West Ham https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=513594

72% at Leceister https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2019/jan/30/liverpool-v-leicester-city-premier-league-live

65% at Utd https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=513574

Even the win against Bayern, possession didn't really matter. 42% and still won https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=530627

So teams that play the "normal" way we can beat, but teams that close up shop and copy what we do, strike on the counter causes us problems.

Unless Ox, Keita or even Shaq get a good run going and assuming the same formula as last season, we'll run into the same problems again without different strategies or a proper signing.

Liverpool also don't play possession ball like city so there are times when Liverpool are winning but it doesn't look like we're in control of the match. We can't kill games off like city can by tippy tapping the ball around until the final whistle. The opposition will get a chance, so it's a good job the defence is top quality. Allison and the back 4 definitely earn their paycheck.

Nit picky I know but it will take everything and more to dethrone city.

1
trasofsunnyvale•

I really don't see the blip in results last year as being specific to midfield. Imo, we missed Trent badly during that run. For me, the fullbacks are far more important to the attack than the mids. Also, not trying to be confrontational, but neither Ox nor Keita have shown they bring a "proper through ball." Hendo does, and Gini has before. I'm sure Ox has this in his locker, but it wouldn't make sense to sacrifice Hendo for him, if you're looking for quick transitional long balls. That being said, I agree that Keita or Ox provide more as midfield runners in attack, and I'd say both are much better goalscorers than Hendo.

1