Publishing Update: Game Mode Details, Content Cadence, and More
kickstarter.com/projects/iga/bloodstained-rit...
kickstarter.comPosted Mar 2, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC
112220
kickstarter.comI suppose the randomizer is an okay consolation prize for the promised roguelike mode, but it isn’t going to stop me from being disappointed. I had expectations set by their promises, and they were not met. I think it’s reasonable to be annoyed. That said, I really hope the multiplayer turns out to be awesome.
25
I'm on the opposite side of the fence - I'm way more into randomizers now than roguelikes, I got tired of them like five years ago (except for FTL). This change makes me super happy!
4
I can see that. It takes a special kind of roguelike to be properly excellent. FTL is one of them. Did you ever play Sunless Sea? It was really charming.
2
That's one that I want to give a shot some time. If anything, my current roguelike of choice is Darkest Dungeon, but I haven't booted that up in a few months.
2
This is a negative ass update. Damn.
Basically, since we already got the initial sales, and got people to not HATE on the switch version publicly anymore which may effect sales, we’re not gonna put in too much effort anymore. Also, that mode that everyone was really looking forward to? Cut. We’re not gonna bother figuring it out. We have your money.
I love Iga, I love these style games and he does em best. Even on the switch I’d take this over any other available metroidvania, but goddamn man, next time, if there’s a next time, learn from all these mistakes.
24
I love these style games and he does em best.
For me he's an important part of the industry since he's pretty much the father of the genre, but Hollow Knight, Blasphemous, Dead Cells, Wuppo and Ori are WAY more polished than Bloodstained; heck, I'm sad to say that Bloodstained, despite being a return ro Iga's classics, isn't even close to being as replayable and big as some of the DS titles.
9
Those games are more polished, yes. But they’re not nearly as fun to me. I’ll still take the gba castlevanias over any other modern metroidvania, let alone the DS games, which I agree, still stand up really strong over most or maybe all other metroidvania a since. I’m also a big fan of castlevania in general and horror movies, so that might add to my bias. The new Strider was a great game, I’m a huge fan of that one, but still not close to the da or gba vanias. I might take it over bloodstained, but that’s a coin flip. Hollow knight was cool but if you grew up on the igavanias, even that game is miles away.
15
I gotta agree with Kittens here. Polish aside, Iga's the only one who really makes them I like them. RPG heavy with lots of secrets and loot to discover, rapid character growth, and not being too difficult. That last one seems to be something the indie scene really hates— they all want to make their games Dark Souls. I like that in an IgaVania I can get some crazy overpowered gear setups and go to town. I like that my exploration is rewarded with making the game easier. I like that I can zen out when playing an IgaVania. I find them relaxing. And I understand that's really counter-intuitive to what most people play the genre for... but that's also why only Iga makes em how I like em.
And also why I was so beyond excited for a randomized castle I could run through over and over again. RIP.
6
Oof, that hurts, honestly. I’ve been a staunch supporter since Day 1 but this is a pretty unfortunate change and does make me concerned for the remaining Stretch Goals. It’s also unfortunate that they didn’t give a date or even date range for Zangetsu/Randomizer either, much less Boss Revenge, which at this point is just “Later than the other thing we didn’t date.”
A pretty disheartening update all told.
22
I can understand the more sparse updates, but giving up on Roguelike at this point is pretty disappointing. I mean, only now they have considered whether it was possible? Pretty sad to see that go, Randomizer does not make me excited at all, and I agree, it doesn't make the prospect of other goals seem great.
18
I mean, only now they have considered whether it was possible?
This is the part that gets me. Roguelike isn't something that was sprung on them at the 11th hour. It was a stretch goal that they set, and they knew that it had been funded before they ever saw any of the Kickstarter money reach them. They knew that this was something that they were going to have to create. So either there was gross incompetence and they just forgot to make sure they could do it, or they never intended to do it in the first place.
(Nor am I even 100% convinced that the engine cannot have a map generator patched in and be set up in such a way as to use it in a specific game mode.)
19
Absolutely. The options are:
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They didn’t plan this out at all and didn’t build the game with the planned features in mind. This calls every other stretch goal into question, especially things like Online Multiplayer and Local Co-Op which would require a lot of functions the game doesn’t currently support.
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They built the game knowing this would not be possible and simply kept the feature as promised in the hopes they could figure it out later. This amounts to false advertising, especially as it was promised in the Launch Trailer.
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They theoretically could do it but it would take more work than they’re willing to put in, especially following the Switch debacle. In this instance, their current messaging is deceptive and is honestly more damaging than if they’d been honest, since the other two options look much, much worse in my opinion.
The main features I want are the two playable characters and Classic Mode. Obviously playable characters are a lot simpler to implement but Classic Mode would require significant rearranging and I’m concerned this will end up cut or end up significantly truncated into just a few straightforward levels with 2-3 of the bosses in tact.
16
There is at least one other option: they developped with rogue-like in mind but they fucked up not realizing some things they did were incompatible with a random map
2
I don't think this is necessarily bad news for the multiplayer aspects. Those would be really popular features. Rogue like modes are fairly niche. They very well might have just decided to focus on the more popular modes to satisfy the largest amount of their userbase. It's also easier to justify charging for a multiplayer DLC rather than adding another single player mode and charging for it. We don't know what this means for multiplayer.
1
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2†
Good bot.
7
Oof bot
2
We dun got fuckin' oof't by Iga.
Send help. And biscuits.
1
Love the game but these devs have dropped the ball time and time again. Why promise something you know you can't deliver? Everything else they promised has no dates. Still no zangetsu... and I'm almost certain that we won't see co-op at this point.
22
I'll be a tad butthurt if co-op gets dropped; the box prints say 2 players!!
14
I'm not even a kickstarter backer, but I bought the game when I saw the future update including the rogue-like. That sounded really awesome for replayability in a way 'randomizer' doesn't, to me.
Still even has the roguelike mode listed in the Free DLC section on the website, too.
19
Loved the game, but the only reason I kept following it after finishing it, was for the roguelike mode. Scrapping it is a gut punch and leaves a bad taste.
18
Couldn't have said it better myself.
0
Randomizer sounds cool on paper, but based on the image they shared, it doesn't seem like it would change much, but please correct me if I'm wrong or missing something. It doesn't randomize levels (apart from swapping save and warp rooms) or enemy placement, just item locations and drops. Apart from key items being in different places presumably forcing you to do things in a different order, I'm not really sure this will be all that interesting. I remain cautiously optimistic though.
17
You should check out The Legend of Zelda: a Link to the Past randomizers if you think that item locations being randomized can’t be interesting.
(although, that randomizer does have options for random boss locations and enemy placement… So it’s better than what we’re going to get with bloodstained)
8
Or if you have a lot of time, ZFG's 9 hour ish runs of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask randomizer with no logic.
3
I have played the big one, and yeah, the item changes were interesting but getting surprised by different enemies was also a huge part of that. Zelda also has a different feel to the overworld progression too that I think lends itself more to that, since items you find early tend to be more likely to fundamentally change how you play the game rather than just get you to a different area earlier. I might be wrong though; a friend I brought this up to mentioned the Metroid randomizer (which I haven't played) that only swapped item locations and said it was great, so this might end up being cooler than I expect.
It's a fun extra regardless of how intensely it changes the gameplay though. I'm happy with any little bonuses they add after the game released, and a new way to replay the game is cool by me.
2
Super metroid randomzers are pretty sexy
4
I haven't played those but a friend I brought this up to mentioned that he'd played really good ones that only swapped item locations and change the game up more than you'd think, so hey, maybe it will be a cool way to replay the game after all. Might be best to wait for people to share some cool seeds though.
Unlike a lot of people I'm actually pretty damn happy with the finished product though (outside of the Switch disappointment), so this is just a bonus to me either way.
2
Super metroid is accidentally ideal. There are very few mandatory items, and a lot of either this or that.
Mandatory is morph, missiles, super missiles, powerbombs, and 3 etanks.
After that its things like, you need either ice beam or speed booster.
1
Doesnt change the castle layout at all. the only gimmick it introduces is a "Will i get what i need to finish the game or not". its a terrible mode for any kind of game that you can soft lock on.
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They mentioned in the article that they control for that.
8
no they mentioned they put in a feature to stop it, where all progression specific pieces are in their original locations.
-3
The mode [Randomizer] will ensure safeguards to ensure that items needed to complete the game will be obtainable, so you can’t softlock your progress.
4
I think this marks the first time an update has fully angered me.
17
This is the first time an update has bothered me much at all. And it's a whammy.
2
Ok, NOW I'm mad.
The EARLY game code do not support the Roguelike? So they promised a thing that couldn't be achieved from the start? This makes no sense...
16
We don’t know how early they’re talking about. “The start” and “early code” were likely months apart.
3
It literally makes perfect sense. When they tried to start the roguelike mode they found some of the code doesn't work with it.
0†
Yeah, but isn't this something you test before commiting to a stretch goal?
7
I don't know how game development works. But I would assume they were concentrating on getting the game finished and didn't realize a roguelike mode wouldn't be possible until just recently.
I mean this isnt anything new really. Theres been many games where features and modes were planned and then got cut for whatever reason.
7
I mean this isnt anything new really. Theres been many games where features and modes were planned and then got cut for whatever reason.
Well idk about you but I sure would like it to stop happening.
2
Sucks they dropped roguelike mode, but it's understandable that it brings a lot of technical difficulties.
Really looking forward to randomizer mode tho. I think it's a fair compromise and a decent alternative for increased replayability.
16
Wow that sucks more than just a little bit. I was most excited about that of anything in the game. I haven't thrown a complaint out there before.. I guess first they came for the Wii U version and I said nothing, then they turned backer exclusive content into DLC and I said nothing(only caring slightly), but now this.. oh technical difficulties? If stretch goals mean nothing then kickstarters lose their merit. This was my first kickstarter and I'm beginning to regret it. Might be my only one.
8
Yeah it especially sucks if you were looking forward to roguelike mode in particular :(
That being said I can't really blame them for the things they've done, seeing the circumstances they were in at the respective times of doing (or deciding) said things. I can't help but praise the team for their open and honest communication despite this.
4
"Unfortunately, the code that was created early in the game’s development is not currently compatible with this type of gameplay"
This is what they're saying, even though the stretch goal existed before they started working on their game, right? I don't see why they worked themselves into a corner if they knew from the beginning that roguelike mode was planned.
10
Yeah more people are saying that. I assume it's a mistake on their part. I also think they are just as unhappy or disappointed as us fans that a roguelike mode can't realistically be added within the current time/financial/technical constraints.
In my opinion they did apologize and owned up to it, and even added randomizer mode that wasn't a goal to begin with. A fair compromise in my opinion.
5
I haven't thrown a complaint out there before.. I guess first they came for the Wii U version and I said nothing, then they turned backer exclusive content into DLC and I said nothing(only caring slightly), but now this.. oh technical difficulties?
Me to a T. I mean, I was bummed the Wii U and Vita versions were cancelled, but I understood. I really didn't care about the exclusive content being sold to backers, but I did see why others did. This though.... this one stings.
2
One of the main reasons I bought this game was for the Roguelike mode. It seemed interesting and fun and I also love roguelike games. Now it is gone and now I have no more reasons to play this game.
I've already platinumed it and so, I'm done.
I'm glad I didn't Kickstart this game as I've been burned before.
After like, almost ten years?, I'm STILL WAITING on my special metal case signed copy of the Minecraft Documentary. TEN FUCKING YEARS.
16
At least you're not waiting for the Vita port of Mighty No 9
12
My first Kickstarter campaign here. I'm torn. I'm certainly glad I pitched in because I wanted a Vania from Iga and I got it, with a cool female protagonist to boot. But if I knew this was how the campaign was going to go, I probably would have only pitched in enough for the game as opposed to the $180 I dropped on it.
6
Am I the only one here wondering what happened to multiplayer? Pretty sure that was supposed to come at some point? Other than that I'm pissed off at the fact that this launch has been handled so poorly. Ive waited patiently no complaints for I dont even know how long anymore and now we get no roguelike. Switch was a mistake and while this game was good I wish I didnt buy it. If it was just advertised as a regular igavania with no extras or anything like that this would be fine. But that is not what was promised. No amount of "mistakes were made" will justify this and the only way to redeem this project in my opinion is coming up with a better way to increase replayability. Randomizer just won't cut it since its still the exact same game.
16
Its kinda stupid that they claim its not possible with the code how it is.....yet they knew from the start what features were promised....
This means that game dev professionals, some with many years experience, including IGA himself, had a very clear list of things to aim for, and built their game in such a way that they cannot deliver those things?
I mean come on, if someone decides to make a purse, and knows how, they dont start by making a life-size replica of a cow.
I am a welder/fabricator, and when I am given a blueprint, I work out what I will need and how I will accomplish building the part.
Its not hard to plan.
15
You're not wrong--it does definitely come down to a failure to properly plan for the feature in the early stages--but software design isn't the same as other engineering projects.
If you want to build a bridge or a building, you know what materials you'll have access to and how they'll interact and it's backed by centuries of mathematical formulas about tensile strength and the like.
Programming doesn't have that information. Hardware changes drastically every couple years, so a program made to work on one platform might behave in unexpected ways on another, even though the code "runs" on both, and it's largely impossible to predict until you try.
They didn't "make a cow," though, they did exactly what you suggested: they ultimately did here was plan to make an Igavania game first, because that's what they knew, and then looked into adding the extra modes. They've never made a roguelike before, so they assumed they'd be able to just tack it on to the game they already made... and it's not meshing.
As others have already stated, it is 100% possible to add whatever feature to the game, including a roguelike mode, because it's all just code. The issue is that the existing code that makes the game run would all need to be changed to get it to work; it would effectively require writing a whole new game with the exact same content, which isn't worth the development cost.
So yes, better planning could have made this just an issue of time rather than an impossiblity within the existing framework, but hindsight is always 20/20. You can plan for what you know, and you can try to plan for what you don't know, but how do you plan for what you don't know that you don't know?
*****
All that said, it's still very disappointing. I felt like the roguelike mode was going to be the draw the game needed that would get my friend(s) to play multiplayer with me. (Assuming multiplayer doesn't also get cancelled; I'm sad that we lost roguelike, but I'll be pissed if we lose multiplayer.) :(
6
Yeah you get it.
I think the problem actually comes down to the choice to make the game 2.5d.
From the look of things, the devs weren't extremely comfortable with 3d models, seeing how things looked in the backer previews and the general response to the visuals. It seems like all the performance issues and bugs people have complained (or laughed) about can be traced back to the choice to use 2.5d. If they had just done pixel art or traditional animation (Hollow Knight is absolutely beautiful), then I doubt the game would run as poorly on the switch and whatnot.
/sigh.
It isnt a big deal. Disappointment sucks. I expected IGA's masterpiece after getting out from under konami, but I got a fairly good indie game. :/
My mistake I guess.
(Oh right, please forgive the bad simile with the purse and cow...i had to hurry and write before going back in work....and I am bad at improv. lol)
2
Programming doesn't have that information. Hardware changes drastically every couple years, so a program made to work on one platform might behave in unexpected ways on another, even though the code "runs" on both, and it's largely impossible to predict until you try.
That's all well and good when talking about "hardware optimisation" code, but it's got bugger all to do with the sort of code that defines a "game mode".
1
The next paragraph I wrote that you didn't quote is specifically about how the new game mode doesn't work with existing code. So there's your bugger.
If you're that bothered, replace "hardware" and "platform" in the line you quoted with "existing code," adjust a bit to make grammatical sense, and it's still a true statement. You don't fully know how new code will interface with the old until you try.
3
The next paragraph I wrote that you didn't quote is specifically about how the new game mode doesn't work with existing code. So there's your bugger.
The relevant bits are all their own code. If they'd written what exists now without the foreknowledge that one of the goals was a roguelike mode, or access to any information about what a roguelike is, you might have a point - but there was no need to make any assumptions about any of that. The "materials" weren't unknowns at all.
You don't fully know how new code will interface with the old until you try.
Not "fully", granted - that would require omniscience. No one knows every quirk of computer's processor, 'cept Mel maybe.
"Not knowing fully" is a far cry from "not knowing whether it will interface at all", however. We're not talking about "how well these rendering methods will mesh with some other company's graphics driver". We're talking about "how ArtPlay's own coding logic meshes with ArtPlay's own coding logic".
I'm sure there are plenty of excuses the devs could throw up about deadlines and budgets and so on. "We didn't know we were writing something that couldn't readily have this game mode added" isn't among them, though.
1
As a person who sometimes plays randomizers (I was playing a La-Mulana randomizer earlier today), I find it interesting that they've decided to implement one in the game itself. Too bad it replaced the Roguelike mode, though.
13
Agreed. I think it's an interesting feature to add, but it's not a replacement for what was lost. :(
4
I play a lot of randomizers too, including the Castlevania DS ones. Honestly I was already expecting it to be a lot like those anyway. The amount of redesign it would take to make a proper roguelike mode would be... unrealistic. Randomizer is a lot easier to program and imo a better fit anyway. It's unfortunate that they're having trouble with procedural generated castles, entrance rando is normally my favorite part. Maybe eventually.
4
Yeah but that's the issue, huh, why should the game be redesigned for it? They knew that they promised that day 1.
I'm not angry I'm just disappointed... And yes in the "they should've done better" way.
7
The amount of redesign it would take to make a proper roguelike mode would be... unrealistic.
Chasm is a game that exists. Just saying.
4
Chasm is kind of a mess of a game, let's be honest.
2
Not really? I've really enjoyed Chasm. Everything works pretty well, and on a first run, you could easily mistake it for a hand-crafted map.
3
Chasm sucks. Take Dead Cells as an example instead.
2
Boy, kind of abrupt and rude how they drop that bomb. Not sure I liked that.
13
I don't really know how you drop that bomb unabruptly, but yeah I didn't like it either.
3
I kind of want to get mad about no roguelike mode... but I can't imagine it would be good.
Personally I'm more annoyed that Zangetsu isn't out yet, but I hope they knock that one out of the park because of how long they're taking instead of a simple palette swap. And they haven't mentioned the third character (it's Alfred right? has to be).
13
With Dominique being the third character you fight in Boss Revenge, I’m leaning toward her. At this point, I’m not taking anything the community managers have said at face value (since they’ve claimed it isn’t her) since there’s been a lot of misinformation or misunderstandings from them.
We’ll see.
6
Recently a post here by the devs said, it won't be Dominique.
2
I know, I addressed that. =P
2
It could be her demon form or something else.
I'm just hoping each one will get a substantial change (either new parts of the castle, new mechanics, or new story) since we're waiting for so long for both of them.
1
Due to this, we regret to announce that we will not be developing Roguelike as part of the project's planned stretch goals.
this was literally the one piece of content i wanted.
The item randomizer mode is litterally something ANYONE with bare bones knowledge could have made happen.
This is pathetic. i want nothing more to do with this game after this let down. i will make sure i never purchase another game your company has had its hands on after the pathetic handling of this game start to finish.
13†
Procedurally-generated castle sounded pretty fun. I'm with you on that last line, the game's development has been a real nightmare.
7
I will buy a new game only when it is a complete package. I'm not going to buy into any promises, and I'm not going to buy a game when it still has updates/DLC in the works. My faith in them to deliver is gone. So I will wait till the product is complete and judge it on its own merits.
The base game is fun. I enjoyed it. If they didn't promise all of this extra content and got me excited for it, I probably would have spent less on the kickstarter but I would have been content with what we received. As such that's simply how I'm going to have to look forward to his future works. I love Iga's games. But aside from Symphony of the Night, I only really played them years after the fact. Gonna have to go back to doing that.
3
I suppose if they can kill off systems to run the game (Wii U, Vita, Linux, Mac), I wonder what other Stretch Goals will be given the axe.
Either way, this experience is interesting feedback for backing a Kickstarter. Just because they promise something doesn't mean they'll deliver it soon, if at all. A good way to ensure future kickstarter donations are on the low side, if at all.
13
For me it was a lesson to not support any big names or Projects which lapse their goal by more than an order of magnitude.
I will continue to support the weird small dreams and treat it like gambling. 15€ to get some jank or an alright game and maybe sometimes a gem. Really looking forward to One Step from Eden right now, that might be a gem. It will be solid at least.
8
Either way, this experience is interesting feedback for backing a Kickstarter. Just because they promise something doesn't mean they'll deliver it soon, if at all.
I backed Mighty No 9. I still haven't received a game key.
3
Do you even want one!?
4
I mean, regarldess of the game's reputation I haven't gotten to see if it's arse or not and my name is in the credits. Getting to try the game for myself would be nice. At this point I'd take a steam key, just let me get my game.
6
Probably co op gunna get the axe
1
Hmm. That sucks. Roguelike was the only DLC gamemode I was actually waiting for...
Randomizer is a nice idea but just not the same. If it would at least include randomized enemies there might be a small sliver of hope but like this it's just not going to be fun for very long - if at all.
Well, I enjoyed the 60 hours I had with it. So it's not like I regret supporting but this is really just disappointing. I'm not sure the other content is going to motivate me enough to play it again.
12
Randomized enemies would totally make up for the fact that there's no roguelike mode coming in my opinion
3
Not really.
As I said it might give the mode some more value but it will in no way replace the actual stretch goal they had set in the beginning.
1
It's irritating but Kickstarter promises are about as reliable as a deadbeat dad. Sure, Pop. We're going to Disneyland next year. No its cool you forgot my birthday again. You're clearly very busy.
I'm just not investing in Kickstarters anymore. Less drama. Let some other suckers fund it and I'll buy it for normal retail price sans a bunch of expensive broken promises.
Yeah.. one thing is for sure. There will always be other suckers. At least I got to experience the deadbeat dad one time. I'll try anything once.
You’d have still fucked uo doing that with this game. I didn’t back it just because of those concerns. Bought it on switch day one after hearing glowing reviews for the other platforms... and of course they said they delayed the switch release to work out the remaining bugs. By the time the switch version was even PLAYABLE, the game had already gone on sale for half price 2 or 3 times.
I have zero regrets investing on Pillars of Eternity 2 back then, but only since they did solid work with the first interation. I'll stay away from new companies as well from now on.
I dunno, the $28 digital copy tier was the most common choice and not a bad deal at all compared to retail.