Dear mods: Why haven't there been any verified post in days? There's been multiple people who sent proof in.
I don't see a single IAmA marked verified or anything non-default in... days at least. Below are some examples (or people who posted proof) and a number below said they said in proof to mods and are waiting for verification (and nothing happened).
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/imwos/iama_trapeze_artist_in_cirque_du_soleil_ask_me/
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/im2hp/malcolm_barrett_w_lem_phil_reunion_ama/ (check out here for new IAmA)
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/im0u7/iama_guy_who_has_helped_develop_vrar_concepts_for/
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ilr7d/iama_professional_eulogy_writer_ama/
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ikyum/iama_4kids_entertainmentproductions_employee_ama/
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ikmyl/i_am_the_guy_in_the_master_troll_vs_orlando/
(The latest verified post was ~~~a day ago. flyryan verified it. But the OP later deleted it~~~ this post)
I understand people have lives and can be busy. The issue is that after 24 hours, the IAmA starts to drop off and becomes inactive.
**[EDIT] New announcement from mods, please read. **
Oh, people asking for proof to verify this. Circlejerk complete: http://i.imgur.com/TyG5N.png (crappy webcam is crappy)
Posted Jul 12, 2011, 3:17 PM UTC · edited
The mods are not very good. I don't even visit IAMA very often and it is easy to see that.
It's pretty obvious the mods in most subreddits just want to be glorified redditors or power users and not do their jobs. They just want a little internet authority and not actively improve or moderate reddit. The only major subreddits I would exempt from this criticism are askscience and truereddit.
I say cut their pay in half!
Not enough! Slash their bonuses for the year!
Slash their tires, too!
Look at the list:
Poromenos
qgyh2
maxwellhill
PhilxBefore
karmanaut
BritishEnglishPolice
They're all good redditors and they all add a lot to the community, but but look at their karma. Anyone who has that much time to devote to searching for links, reading links, and making witty or informative comments doesn't really have the time to spend looking at individuals and verifying that they're legit.
Chromakode is an Admin and sure as shit better not have time to spend on putzing around in here until the damned site has more stability (though it has been better, so props to the Admins for that).
That leaves:
32bites
nitrousconsumed
and
deskrabbit
deskrabbit hasn't posted anything in 4 months. Toss him out the window.
Now we've got 32bites and nitrousconsumed.
nitrousconsumed makes a comment every couple of days and 32bites comments even less frequently than that.
TL;DR: THERE ARE NO FUCKING MODS
Can I say that I haven't posted something in weeks, nor posted a decent amount of comments at all in ages? All I do on reddit is moderation it seems now; and with my absence owing to family issues and internet problems I can't do much.
Maybe it would help if you didn't moderate 33 subreddits? (Source)
You can definitely take on less of a load, and it might improve subreddits if they depended less on one overworked mod and instead used people who only moderate a single subreddit. I don't mean this to be a slight to your abilities, but it just seems to me that we could use a few more independent mods, rather than a few supermods who are stretched thin.
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Whats your opinion on creating a team of limited mods? Not those who can ban users or major powers, just those who will look for evidence and verify. Another tier could take care of verification and 'suspected fake', and so on. That way we can get a lot of mods, not have to worry about over policing or modding the mods, they won't have too much work to do since it just requires browsing ,checking, and verifying.
verifying really takes no work. Typically by the time a mod sees evidence, the hivemind has already scowered every possible detail to make sure its true. In those cases, weak mods should just be able to quickly verify the threads.
I have offered in the past, with no response. I'm more than willing; I have good prior and current credentials to prove I'm not a massive power-hungry chode.
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BEP, let me help you,I can do verification and shit like that.
Umm if you're having issues being a mod, give up the position to someone who can actually do it.
hey about your post about new mods, you should make the detectiveinspectors the new mods.
Step down.
Would nominate another mod then? Thats okay you're having problems, but a replacement or two for the inactive mods would be nice.
I CALL FOR A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE!
I'm not confident in you.
On who? The mod who the responded or the ones who didn't?
I mod several small to midsize subreddits and i have to say there are plenty of days i spend on reddit dealing with spam, banning issues, abuse issues and formatting issues where i make no posts or comments. Doesn't mean I'm not helping improve my subs and the overall reddit experience.
Yeah everyone knows to be a good mod you need to make exactly one submission and ten comments a day.
Not having posted in a while doesn't mean they're not doing their moderation job.
True, but not having posted in 4 months is a pretty good indication that you've lost touch with the community.
Not having verified so many IAmAs means they're not!
The gameofthrones subreddit is also well moderated.
It's probably moderated by paid hbo interns.
I'm not complaining if they keep me from seeing spoilers.
Hmm, I´d never thought of that.
/rimshot
Came here to say this. They've done an exemplary job handling spoilers.
This all sounds so familiar.
Yeah - I heard it just last year in every moderated forum ever.
Somehow I think that's what internetsuperstar was going for.
Usenet was impossible to moderate and it (the discussion groups) turned into a cesspool of concentrated trolldom.
The inmates took over the asylum for so long that they convinced themselves that it was the non-trolls who were trolling. Feels bad man.
But yeah, the alternative is dealing with douchebag power-trippy mods on web forums. On balance the web forums are better simply because 1 tenth of 1% can make a forum unusable.
There are many instances of reddit moderators doing all sorts of douchebaggary. Thumperings banned me from DIY, because I chewed him out for not helping me because I sent him a note through his regular mail.
It was a mistake on my part to send a message to his regular mail. That was done out of sheer ignorance on my part. The douche move part was choosing not to help me because I made that mistake, and I let him know I thought it was a douche move to not help me in retaliation. In response to me letting him know exactly how I felt about that, he retaliated by using his mod powers to ban me.
Does the dude give a fuck about DIY? He doesn't even regularly contribute to DIY, whereas I, as a long time handyman and tradesman do. Petty moves like that lower the quality of reddit. His task is to improve it, not degrade it. He fails on all cylinders. In fact, most of his commentary is inane. I'll bet he'd want mods to delete this post.
People like that should never, ever, be put in a position of power anywhere or work at something like customer service. Wrong mindset or attitude for that kind of work. There was the Saydrah issue, the BlueRock/DonManuel censorship issues, the violentacrez using his mod position to troll issue, and a lot more nefarious shit.
The solution is simpler than dealing with spammers. Just ban them at least from being moderators.
lol this guy again. I was a founder of a few moderately popular / populated subreddits, and in 4 years I've never banned anyone permanently aside from I believe one user threatening a decapitation and knowing this other users address, and or habitual spammers. I specifically inform any moderators I "hire on" to basically leave the subreddits to their own devices. (let voting take care of the instigators etc)
I had to remove all the moderators once in one large subreddit for abuses of power. I had noted that It ran better almost unmoderated, This character here messaged my inbox for some subreddit issue, and I asked him to try and use the moderator mail for issues like he was having, and not the private inboxes of moderators. Instead of saying: : "Oh ok sure I didn't even know there was a distinction, he said basically WTF!? WHY DON'T YOU RESIGN ASSHOLE! abuse of power abuse of power!" and.. "that If I was going to be a huge dick about such a small issue i had no business being in a "position of power" on and onnn and onnnnn which is pretty ironic considering as i stated before i have always used a very hands off approach. Just a real sweet talker. :)
I've had exactly 2? or 3 fights with other members in 4 years in the 10 or so subreddits I opened. This guy being either the 3rd or the 4th I believe (If one swants to call it a "fight" He was so nasty and insulting over me merely asking him to understand a basic Reddit function. I finally had enough of his barrage of insulting messages bombarding my inbox so I told him I was putting him in "time out" lol. (He never did switch over to Moderator mail LOL. But even this type of unusual assholery doesn't bother me too much. Really the only thing I would perma-ban someone for would be for a threat of violence, or hate speech type stuff. This guy is just a goofball.
That's all I'm saying on the matter. I wasn't even going to respond because he's just an attention seeker but It's fine. He actually just messaged me pointing me to this post of his LOL. I love the ego. We really do need an iggy feature over here. ;)
Rather than outright lie, why don't you post the actual conversation, and for fun, we'll compare it to the hyperbolic version of what you just typed. It'll be a showcase of why folks like you can't be trusted in a position of power.
If you were a cop, you'd be the douchebag cop treating someone like shit because they didn't bow down to your authority, used your powers of authority to abuse their rights, and filled your police report with exaggerations and lies.
Come on, do it, I dare you. Lets compare what you just typed above to the actual conversation.
That's not exactly how the conversation went, and you don't use your position of power to ban someone because they put you in your place. This had shit to do with anything I did in DIY, I just didn't take your rudeness on the chin without saying anything. You had the choice of mentioning that I shouldn't message you in your PM box, and then helping me, or being rude by punishing me for making the error. You chose the latter and got rightfully a piece of my mind for it.
Had you done such a thing to a paying customer of a business I owned and you were an employee, you'd be out of a job. Someone innocently not following some minor protocol out of ignorance is no reason not to help them.
You're pointing out why it's so hard to add moderators.
Without an explanation, I can assume you mean any number of things.
Have you been to most subreddits? Don't make generalizations that large unless you have. Yes there are crappy mods, but you only notice the crap ones, not the good ones. It's like trying to notice how for 10 weeks the lights worked in your house. You don't actively notice it, it becomes the background. Only when something is wrong or bothers you do you notice it (and I mean the royal "you," not just you specifically).
I'm a mod of a tiny subreddit and I do my job. Most of the subreddits I subscribe do have mods who either keep things stable or go out of their way to up the quality. I rarely encounter the "power hungry" people you are describing, though I would never deny that plenty probably exist.
"One". It drives me nuts that we have a completely functional, extremely useful word for this, yet we can't use it without sounding pretentious.
WELL I, FOR ONE, AM TAKING IT BACK! One should be able to use the word "one" without being elitist. Never again will one feel the hard, anti-intellectual, evil stares of his peers. One for all, and all for one!
It's about readability. If I'm writing a paper/article, sure, I use the third person. When I'm talking to people i.e. a conversation, I tend to use the second person. Example:
It can be perceived as condescending.
Like I said previously, one (haha) quickly loses the tone of it being a conversation. I feel like on Reddit I'm having a conversation more than writing a formal paper.
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You're just doing that to avoid the children. We need you at home.
As someone who posts on r/relationships frequently I can confirm this with gusto
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That's because the community accepts them and their authority.
F7U12 has a pretty big anti-mod feel and I think if we tried to be as tight as AskScience the community would go ape-shit. The silly thing is that what they'd revolt against is exactly what we need. Small steps, I guess.
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Nice try askscience and truereddit moderator!
this is not their job, this is something they do voluntarily.
Exactly. Mods do work of their own accord for no money and, often, no thanks.
It's a little difficult to tell someone to "do their job" when it's completely volunteer and not formalized in any way.
This.
I'm currently on day 6 of waiting for a new sub that I created to be unspammed, r/ballparks. (Sent 2 messages requesting updates only to hear crickets so far.)
I asked to be a mod on r/baseball because there are only 2 mods for 8k users! They were all like, "naw, we're good bra'." But I think it's because I had slightly different opinions on how to upkeep r/baseball and they didnt care for them. I'm actually a little peeved, the more I think of it. I know a shit ton about baseball (played in college, coach high school) and yet those 2 mods decide everything.
Probably because they made the subreddit. It's theirs. You can't just come along and exert authority on someone else's sub. If they like you and think you'll be a good fit, they'll add you. Otherwise, it's their decision.
A lot of times mods take over for inactivity. I dont know their story, I just know that I think I could be of assistance in making that sub better, and I was re-buffed.
If I have so much authority, how come Im on the outside looking in? It's their choice, I respect that, but it is kind of a bummer.
I am more than willing to work on mine! But it's a bunch of pot smoking lesbians, so there's not any moderating necessary :P
Which sub is that?
r/potsmokinglesbians or something?
even better. r/lesbients
It's still new, but there is some activity :)
Hey man, some of us work.
/r/gamernews /r/relationships
/shameless plug
Gamernews is one of my favorite subs. They do good work.
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Mods are barely more than janitors. The question is, are you paying them?
See: No pics day.
I'd also like to nominate TodayILearned for an exemption from this statement.
Yes, I had a problem submitting and two mods offered their help. In the end my entry was rejected but both were so nice, I wasn't even upset.
Glad you had a pleasant experience. Hopefully you'll submit again if you find something TIL-ish
As the mod of several small to midsize subreddits i cant help but take offense.
Seems true of people in real life too.
will you do an ama?
I run a subreddit, though not a popular one. It's more like... I just don't think about it every day.
Do you really think this? I protest at this false impression.
Sounds like Congress.
I am so proud of reddit right now.
You two rock.
Fuck the mods, childish twats, trying to wear a monocle and top hat and dance around with dreams of superiority.
Pathetic.
I welcome it, I say keep putting pressure on them to live up to their idiotic assumptions and attempts to circumvent the popular vote.
Fucking lol.
Wow. I do not agree. r/science mods well. And almost all the other subreddits where I have messaged the mods have responded rather quickly. As I understand it mods volunteer. Let's ask for them to keep hours and what not, but let's not over do the hate speech.
Meaning you can post constructive criticism without trying to psychologically profile the reason for wanting to be a mod.
I support asking about the mod activity in IAma, just try to not over do the hate speech.
The job of a mod is to keep a subreddit from being chaos. Approve/delete reported comments/posts, delete spam, enforce the rules.
It is nothing beyond that. If anything, you have to be more careful what you do in your regular non-mod comments, because that determines how people react to your official shit.
I think the name should be changed from 'mod' to 'janitor,' since it's a more accurate title.
This is the same for mods everywhere on t'internet
I think that askreddit, barring the amount of relationship questions they allow (when they should be redirecting the user to r/relationships) try hard to strike a good balance between allowing everybody to express their views while trying to keep the quality in the subreddit up... unfortunately with any subreddit that size there are a lot of idiots.
I wish I had this job, I dont really care about Karma or popularity. I will improve the shit out of AMA & IamA.
This is bullshit, they do a lot more work then you think, whenever my posts get caught in the spam filter they respond within 5 minutes. It's probably possible that they don't want to verify posts unless they get solid proof, because they have had troll IAmAs in the past where they accepted sub-par proof.
BEP, among others is a fascist with a life? You don't say!
I love askscience. s/mods/gods
So... Like Congress? If US politicians don't do their jobs, why should reddit moderators?
This is the worse comparison in the history of comparing.
That comparison was like making chocolate pancakes.
That's an extremely unfair allegation.
r/IAmA has roughly the same population as Oakland or Minneapolis. By way of comparison, the size of the team running it is the size of a little league team. I just counted; in the past two hours there have been twenty submissions, not including requests. And not all moderators are on all the time, and all moderators are being paid nothing, and all moderators have lives and responsibilities and a dire fear of getting caught up in the witch hunts that are invariably launched within r/IAmA the minute one of them guesses wrong about whether or not they should be verified.
Remember that kid that donated a kidney and got pilloried because someone said "I call fake?" Y'all shat down BritishEnglishPolice's neck for not taking the post down, and then shat down his neck again when the kid came up with (entirely TMI, entirely heartbreaking) proof that yeah, he actually was a kidney short. So that's one guy, doing this for love, having an internet hate mob after him twice in one day for doing exactly what the mob asked him to.
Remember that guy who pretended to be the chick from Game of Thrones and passed off a photoshopped driver's license and got verified? And then everyone figured out she was fake two hours later? Ever really looked at the spillover from that? So we've got maybe three guys who know just as much about photoshopped driver licenses as you or I do, except when they fuck up it makes it into Salon, Entertainment Weekly, Gawker, Daily Beast and the bloody Times of India.
Remember that girl who was giving her hair to cancer research and people called bullshit on it and doxed the fuck out of her? The mods were in the middle of that too and Gawker used it as a reason to smear Reddit.
So again - a dozen people, none with any experience doing this or any reward for doing it, whose decisions are "not to be missed" according to CNN.
What's your response?
"Oh, they're not very good."
Moderating IAmA is probably the highest-pressure task on all of Reddit. It is wholly and completely uncompensated and wholly and completely thankless. Every moderator up there is one bad decision from you thankless fucks demanding their heads for every little thing. And should they maybe shy away or have a life or otherwise not pander to your every instantaneous whim, it's obviously because they're "not very good."
Cut them some mutherfucking slack. IAmA, more than any other subreddit, is the place where shit goes pear-shaped. How badly do you really need to know that that guy is really a professional trapeze artist? How badly do you really need to know that that guy is really a professional eulogy writer? How badly do you really need to know that that guy is really an employee of Bing?
(And did you notice he verified it himself?)
The mods are "not very good" because they aren't quick enough in putting green dots in front of someone's names? Get a life. Presume everyone's a troll unless otherwise specified and remember that even if they get a green, the mods aren't the mutherfucking Supreme Court.
You wanna see "not very good" mods? Keep trying to chase away the ones you have. See what you end up with then.
I fail to see why a moderator position should be anything but a thankless job you do for free. That is kind of what internet moderation is all about. I've moderated large forums before, and it can be a tough job. But you either do it or you don't. There is no time to consider what people think of you because, quite frankly, it doesn't matter. You spend however much time you can allow doing the job because you want to make the place better for the community. If people don't like you doing your thankless job, that's too bad. But that's only if you actually do it.
And I don't join in on the witch hunts.
kleinbl00 agrees with you. It is a thankless job you do for free, and keeping it a thankless job you do for free is what keeps out a majority of people who shouldn't be moderating.
All he's asking is you refrain from casually insulting their effort in the thankless job that they do for free, considering how much work they put into making your reddit experience better.
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They don't.
There's a world of difference between "thankless job you do for free" and "job that leads to constant castigation and derision that you do for free."
If you're doing something on the internet and there's a considerable following, it's pretty much guaranteed shit like that to occur.
Hell I run a few MUDs and they aren't even that popular and I still get shit like that.
If you're going to get into something like being a mod here or anything where you help run a community, you should not let this get to you. It's expected.
If I let it get to me, I would have shut down my MUD a long time ago.
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Seriously, the witch hunts are what ruins this subreddit.
They are so much worse that finding out that a couple posts were fake. It seems like 50% of the time, the witch hunts are wrong anyway.
Well said.
That's what I'm talking about. Moderator can never able to manage more than thousand of people. You are better off just leaving it alone and let the redditors do their work by researching and such. If you want to verify that you are the real IMA then give us your verification to show that you are the real deal on your thread. If you want to keep your verification private then don't do the IMA. Simple as that.
In addition, I would love for everybody to read this article about Techniques that moderators uses and the forums. I know this forum is very different than others but there are still some corrupted mods on this site, aka r/politics.
http://www.picassodreams.com/picasso_dreams/2011/04/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum.html
Goddamn, you're good at putting forward things in a coherent manner.
What a pathetic display of being impressed by a long comment.
It was full of rhetoric and bullshit.
Wow. Excellent points and examples. I didn't think about the broader implications of representing reddit to the media (inadvertently or not.)
Is it just me, or does a surprising number of people have a severe lack of empathy. Can these people complaining not imagine what it's like to be a mod? Especially after the first few weeks of it when the novelty wears off.
Do you think they have schedules? Do you think karmanaut is scheduled to be on reddit from 4am-8am est until maxwellhill comes to take over his shift? Did you ever consider that maybe BritishEnglish actually has real work to do today or that chromakode might be at the beach with his family today? I imagine they don't exactly find someone to take over some imaginary shift. Did you ever consider what happens if they choose incorrectly as in the examples kleinbl00 gave? Those were pretty tame IAmAs compared to the celebrity ones. I wouldn't exactly expect a bunch of media attention on "giving my hair to charity." It might seem obvious to you when you don't have to answer for the results in any way.
You deserve an infinite amounts of upvotes.
Then add more mods.
the mods are not very good, dude. it's plain to see for anyone with eyes
You are a stupid cunt. Go fuck yourself. What drew your attention to this comment?
You are a delusional moron who just wants to try and rely on some assumed ability to ban users instead of your own dim wit.
And needing to know? That needing to know was instilled by... THE MODS - who wanted to give themselves duties to do. They thought it would be fun to sit there like a panel of judges, shooting people down. But then shit got real, people actually held them to it, and they decided they were clueless fucks.
Oh fucking stop it, kleinbloo, you self centered, overblown asshole.
IAMA implemented a stupid confirmation strategy that I and countless others told them at the very beginning was not only 1. utterly unsustainable but 2. would prove to be entirely ineffective from the start, even when it had the appearance of sustainability.
So take your bullshit, kleinbloo, and stick it up your arse. You are no longer relevant.
I do not think that moderating IamA is a very high-pressure task.
Considering the mods are consistently not giving a fuck about anything mods would have to do.
I do not think that "what you think" and "the examples listed above" have ever met in space-time.
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Spot on.
And to be clear, we are asking a lot of them, so being "not very good" is completely understandable -- there are over 300,000 people that 13 mods are all trying to police.
This is an unpopular opinion, but things have been going downhill since mercurialmadnessman left about a year ago (or was forced out?).
That guy was an outstandingly good moderator.
Thanks.
I've tried raising concerns, but nobody seems to care.
We spent so much time verifying posts in the past. When this 'new' verification system was brought in, ALL the old verifications were deleted.
My pride and glory, Roger Ebert is "default unsure" instead of "verified". Look at the top posts of all time, and you will see that most of them are no longer verified.
Therefore you cannot say that. If you don't visit a community often you cannot say sweeping generalisations about how it is run with such confidence, can you?
That I only need to visit it once in a while to see how poorly it is run says it all. I truly don't mean to sound like a dick or anything but that's just how it is.
I don't believe that. If I said "I've only visited two cities in America and I saw they were shit." and claimed that I could see the entire country was shitty from my small view, would you think that'd be fair? There's a lot more action behind the scenes than you'd know.
There's a huge difference. Here you can look through several pages of history to confirm your opinion. If you haven't visited in a week, well you can spend a lot of time going through lots of posts.
Your argument goes way out into left field in an attempt to divert the attention. If you were to visit two cities in America, what you saw was shit, and then come back a week later able to see video/pictures of what occurred during that week and still thought it was shit would be a better comparison, but unfortunately would work out in his favor as opposed to your own.
Well...I visit the sub-reddit everyday. This sub-reddit has become a joke.
If there's more going on in the background...this post might be a good place to start communicating.(I see that you're doing that). If the mods aren't doing their jobs because they've become disinterested, perhaps it's time to cull the dead weight and get new mods.I'll agree with the second part, but that's a pretty shitty analogy.
you suck at modding, don't get mad about it
Yes you can lol. How much time do you think he would have to spend lurking before he was allowed his opinion?
No you can't, and why use that 'lol'? I'm not here to judge how much time you can spend before voicing your opinion but to say that you barely visit somewhere but can still voice an opinion generalising on the behaviour of those who run it is quite frankly illogical.
Yes you can. He just did. If I walk into a dirty bedroom I don't need to be there long to know it's a dirty bedroom. Same with this subreddit. I don't need to be here long to see it has a problem with moderation. If the guy has a 188 upvotes, he has an opinion that is agreed upon by around 188 people. It doesn't matter how long he has been lurking he can generalize all he wants as it hurts no one. I commented because I thought it was funny that you seemed to take offence to this guy having an opinion and not being as hardcore as you may be with participation in this subreddit.
Edit: I would agree with you if he was generalizing about the people who frequent the subreddit and contribute, but since he is generalizing about the mods who run it, well, I gotta agree with him. There are not that many mods and they have not been running things and that seems to be the majority opinion. Work, school, family and other things can stop mods from coming online so you can't blame them but you also cant blame someone for having an opinion when he walks into a community and sees off the bat that it's broken.
you all got one of those wrong
MOAR
kleinbl00 commented here because Crizack's comment was too damning.
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You realize that IAmA not being good is you're (plural) own damn fault, right?
You've (plural) been under the impression that 12 random internet strangers are in charge of what you believe. You're (plural) leaving a decision of validity, for something that is to be of entertainment and commentary value, in the hands of 12 random internet strangers. You're (plural) constantly and actively looking for "verified" posts while attempting to vilify all "the trolls". You're (plural) always changing your (plural) minds on what constitutes verified, valid or villain.
Why do you (singular and plural) feel it's OK to be so damn dependent on a handful of internet strangers to make your (singular and plural) decisions?
You (singular) need to get the stick out of your (singular) ass.
I WILL CONSIDER IT DOING SO WITH HASTE. THANK YOU GOOD SIR. I WILL BE SURE TO ASK THE MODERATORS TO VERIFY THE PROCESS SO YOU CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT.
your, not you're
fucking moron
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Your a pleasant character.
YOU'RE a fucking moron