r/WoT•5 yr. ago

Sanderson had a tough job to do.

SpoilerThe Gathering Storm

I'm on my first re-read and have finally arrived to The Gathering Storm and wanted to share some thoughts I had.

On my first read through I remember loving Sanderson's work and thinking that it wasn't even that far off from Jordan's writing. But dang, I'm realizing now that it's soo different! Everything is different.

I think there are two reasons: The time between books -- I was up to date with the releases and didn't re-read between each release, so I had simply waited a long time before reading Sanderson's work.

On this re-read, I'm here to enjoy the world and go on adventures with my old friends. So I'm really paying attention to the nuances of each character's point of view and trying to bask in the world building.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the take that Sanderson adds to the series. I am so appreciative that he finished Wheel of Time! But I see why in his recent interviews he's talked about how hard it was for him to accept the job and how he wouldn't be interested in writing follow up books.

Thanks Brandon for carrying the torch to the finish line and I understand now just how tough it must have been. Looking forward to reading Rhythm of War after this turning of the Wheel 😎

Posted Jan 1, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

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silvioddante•5 yr. ago

People often moan about him but who else could have done as well or better? We're lucky it got done

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MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

Yeah, it seems like the community is pretty mixed about it. WoT is what introduced me to Sanderson and I've been following him ever since, and now I don't know of anyone that could have done better.

silvioddante•5 yr. ago

His output is insane. Anyone who love wot and disrespects him is a shithead

Revfunky:RavensL::RavensR: (Ravens)•5 yr. ago

I wouldn't say disrespect exactly.

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silvioddante•5 yr. ago

What?

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Disastrous_Donut•5 yr. ago

I really don't enjoy Sanderson's writing for WOT. The contrast to Jordan is so stark and it feels in parts oversimplified and rushed. You just know that Jordan would have had something much different...100 books later of course ;). That all said, I've enjoyed Sanderson's separate works quite a lot, even the YA stuff is readable. He's a great author, and it was just an impossible position to be in. He finished the series, gave it an ending, and I hope RJ doesn't judge it too harshly from his writing desk in the sky.

bmystry•5 yr. ago

Yea can't disagree with this. Yes you can tell it's different but overall it's still good and unless you can bring people back from the dead you have to pick someone.

Pedigog1968•5 yr. ago

I've always thought the major difference between them is the battle/fight scenes, RJ built up a battle, the tension of the coming conflict, then the horror not glory of battle. Were as BS is the opposite of this. I am currently on my 4th listen to them in audiobook format and the amount of times I've found myself on the balls of my feet, fists clenched, ready for battle solely through RJ's build up. Never got that through BS.

silvioddante•5 yr. ago

Thank you. These guys are going to cry endlessly when the show strays from source material too. Just enjoy it. Whattdya gonna do. I'm done arguing on reddit haha

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bmystry•5 yr. ago

Hold on there the show is a whole other thing. See the Lord of the Rings movies those changed things from the books but overall they're excellent and true to the books. If you go on to the Hobbit movies well let's not talk about those.

GroundbreakingSalt48•5 yr. ago

My brother is one of those who can't stand the way Sanderson writes... But just by hearing tid bits of Sanderson talking about it while stream, he still respects him and agrees that there was no better choice.

Sanderson also acknowledges almost all of my brothers main complaints so that helps.... Mainly it revolves around Mat

ShenTzuKhan:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

I get that most people don't like BS's Mat. I can see the changes in him.

I like BS Mat more. I've been downvoted for this before, and I'll fuckin do it again. Some of my favourite Mat scenes are in BS books. >!When he and Rand are comparing achievements and Mat gets the last word in I was laughing, near tears and whooping all at once!<

James_William•5 yr. ago

Idk Sanderson Mat is pretty corny. Mostly in TGS but in the last 2 books also. Obviously glad BS finished the series but the criticisms for Mats character are warranted. He's like a slapstick cartoon version of RJs Mat

69umbo•5 yr. ago

...mat himself is a slapstick character

tjcecil6:BandOfTheRedHand: (Band of the Red Hand)•5 yr. ago

I completely agree with you. Unpopular opinion, but Mat was probably my least favorite main characters for most of the books. When BS took over, his character became a lot more likable to me. Not sure what exactly changed, but his decision making seemed to annoy me less.

smithsp86•5 yr. ago

Honestly I think he saved the series. If you look at the books right before Sanderson took over (i.e. Path of Daggers to Knife of Dreams) they all turned into rough reads. For example, Perrin goes basically 3 books with fairly significant word count and nothing really happening.

blade55555:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

I was worried about how he would do, but he did a good job imo. I can't complain how he did, though I will always wonder how Robert would have finished the series.

jasonhall1016•5 yr. ago

It surprises me when I see comments where people talk about how Sanderson didn't do as good of a job as Jordan would have done. Like, yeah. It was his series and Sanderson has a different style. Trying to emulate someone else's voice is so difficult. Sanderson probably did as good of a job as anyone could ever have done. He was, in my opinion, the best choice. He's incredibly creative and great at pulling everything together at the end, which I thought Jordan didn't do as good of a job at. They both have their strengths and Sanderson had an unenviable job of finishing someone else's work. I mean, it could have ended like the Game of Thrones series.

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

Agreed, I think he did a good job also.

Not trying to hate on Sanderson at all (he's one of my favorite authors) -- it's just that in light of his recent interviews, I'm now realizing that he knew things were going to change when he picked it up.

Doing my first re-read I can see what a huge burden he had to carry to literally write the conclusion of such a huge series!

AndrenNoraem:FlameOfTarValon: (White)•5 yr. ago

I'm not convinced RJ could have finished it, even if he'd lived another 20+ years. The series had gotten away from RJ long ago, he was married to long descriptions of everything with his particular style of prose, and I saw very little sign of any of that being truly reigned in. So even if his output was high, we might've gotten 4-5 more books without resolution... or it might have gotten stuck in rewrite/edit hell as he tried to come anywhere near his promise of just 1 more book.

Exnixon•5 yr. ago

Yeah I definitely noticed the Sanderson voice when I read them (I hadn't read the prior books recently at that point, I had just read some Sanderson stuff and his writing style sticks out to me). His voice isn't always my favorite, but his pacing is second to none, and it's exactly what WoT needed.

And I'll put myself out there with an unpopular opinion and say I liked the Sanderson Mat better. Yes, he was different. But I loved Sanderson's take on the character.

GroundbreakingSalt48•5 yr. ago

To me, Mat actually became the buffoon in Sandersons writing, which is so far from what Mat actually was imo.

ShenTzuKhan:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

While I respect your opinion, and I think I can see why you feel that way, for me Sanderson captured Mat in a way that showed him to be who I always thought he was.

I can't make the spoiler square work for some reason, may come back to this when I'm soberer. May not.

Walk in the Light.

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ShenTzuKhan:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

Literally the only thing you could do to make me like your comment more is to add the Asha'man flair.

Thank you brother

AllCirclesMeow:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

He had a tough job to do...

It's got it's flaws... Just like Jordan's work. But he pulled it off. We got lucky.

TSPSweeney:DragonFang: (Asha'man)•5 yr. ago

Variations in this topic seems to be coming up a lot lately.

I respect Sanderson greatly as an author and I truly admire that he took on such an unforgiving, monumental task and delivered on it. The more I read the last three books, the less I like them, but that doesn't take away the fact I'm grateful he got it done.

Malvania:OgierGreatTree: (Ogier Great Tree)•5 yr. ago

This is pretty much where I'm at. TGS has become one of my least favorite books. I don't think it's truly a Sanderson problem, though. The issues are ones that should have been spotted during editing and addressed, rather than him having free reign. It seems like Mat especially should have been scrapped and gone back to the drawing board

Oliver_the_Dragon•5 yr. ago

The topic seems to come up in waves as more new readers finish the series and as more people complete a first reread.

I've also been noticing that lately more of the "[Character] is the worst" posts are using stuff from Sanderson's books to justify their arguments, which to me is completely unfair to the character since Sanderson is known to have mishandled characters and plotlines (which he has openly acknowledged).

ETA: I'd be so curious to see what the overlap is between the pro-Sanderson (for lack of a better term) and the anti-show-changes camps. I'm also curious how the very-anti-show-changes camp reacted to the Sanderson changes.

ujanmas•5 yr. ago

English is my second language and I have no idea which parts are written by Sanderson. Are there any resources that show the divisions?

SilverMoonshade:LeaflessTree: (Leafless Tree)•5 yr. ago

There are no definitive resources, just questions and comments from interviews.

We know the epilogue is Jordan.

We know the Tower of Ghenjei is Jordan.

We know the Kandori tower scene is Jordan.

We know that pretty much everything Perrin was Sanderson.

if i recall correctly, Hinderstap is Sanderson.

Androl is 100% Sanderson.

Carai-an-Ellisande•5 yr. ago

!Veins of gold is Sanderson too, iirc!< spoiler tagged because not sure if it's in TGS or TOM

[deleted]•5 yr. ago

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JCMS85•5 yr. ago

I think overall Sanderson did a great job. There are some major issues (Mat POV etc) that are ok to point out but a job I think almost no one else could have pulled off.

That being said Sanderson is one of the few major writers who’s writing abilities have clearly gotten better as seen in his own work. I wish he would/could do a new edit of his 3 WOT books as they would be improved a lot I think. A man can wish.

mrbuh:TrefoilLeaf: (Trefoil Leaf)•5 yr. ago

Yeah, he did great. Was it without flaws, or exactly the same as Jordan would have done? Of course not. But he carried a sprawling epic over the finish line in a very competent fashion. I can't imagine that any other author would have done a better job than he did, or inserted their own voice less.

FuckYouGod:DragonL::DragonR: (Dragon)•5 yr. ago

What were some differences that you noticed?

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

This is my opinion of course -- but I'd say foremost, the characters. It's kinda like they all "think" like Perrin hahaha. Short abrupt sentences. Restating their convictions over and over. Aviendha seems like almost a different character because her "voice" is so forward.

Speaking of Avi, I loved the part where she "used the weight of the river" to let her channel her flows so far, and that sweet Sanderson touch where he gets creative within the constraints of the magic system is a really awesome touch that I also find to be different than Jordan's way of doing it. I remember a couple other instances like this in the final book that I won't say since this is tagged for TGS :)

I'm only about 300 pages into TGS but I'm looking forward to seeing if he kinda gets into a groove over the next couple of books.

WBU?

FuckYouGod:DragonL::DragonR: (Dragon)•5 yr. ago

I think the biggest difference is that Sanderson is a lot more straight forward, while Jordan is more subtle. I know this is kind of beating a dead horse, but think about how Mat's humor changed. Jordan's Mat was funny because he had a unique view of every situation that was different than all the other PoV characters.

For example, look at how Jordan's Mat views his situation with Rand compared to how characters like Perrin and Nynaeve view theirs. They both accept that they need to help Rand succeed for the greater good, while Mat is just like, "I need to get the fuck away from this dude before he gets us both killed."

Sanderson's Mat is a wise cracking jokester that makes light of everything. He would fit perfectly in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but he doesn't fit in The Wheel of Time.

The Gathering Storm is my favorite book by the way. So I'm not some Sanderson hater.

SilverMoonshade:LeaflessTree: (Leafless Tree)•5 yr. ago

Im one the readers who hated is take on Mat. If you havn't read this before, its worth it. Gave me a lot of respect for Sanderson.

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-gathering-storm-what-i-learned/

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

Haven't actually reached any Mat parts yet in TGS 🙈 my first read through I wasn't as acutely aware, but I'm very curious to finish this to see how my interpretation compares to your (and others) thoughts.

FerventAbsolution•5 yr. ago

Fortunately I think Sanderson got better at handling Mat the further along he got in writing which was nice. For me personally Mat was the only real jarring difference but by the end I didn't even notice anymore.

SilverMoonshade:LeaflessTree: (Leafless Tree)•5 yr. ago

when you're done with TGS,

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-gathering-storm-what-i-learned/

AltruisticStandard26•5 yr. ago

I really noticed how long characters spoke for, multiple paragraphs. Not something I had seen before Sanderson took over. I have a hang up with how quotations are used when character speak for multiple paragraphs. Grade 7 trauma, so I tend to be more aware. I think a lot of readers were happy to have the series finished when the last books initially came out. Upon rereads the change in style becomes more apparent.

TheDragonReborn726•5 yr. ago

This is a good way to put it. Sanderson...is pretty blunt IMO and less nuanced. But, to be fair I think when you are given someone else’s characters you may have to kind of play them up more? Almost like the beginning season of a sitcom where everyone is an exaggerated version of themselves...

All in all it’s not my favorite but he also did finish them In a way I was satisfied with and we are all very lucky about that.

SilverMoonshade:LeaflessTree: (Leafless Tree)•5 yr. ago

Tempest, Said, Devil

Sanderson likes the word tempest. It stands out to me because i don't recall Jordan ever using it.

i didn't notice it when reading, but the audio books have highlighted Sanderson's use of "said". Jordan would transition from one speaker to another with other clues, or no reference, whereas Sanderson littered whole pages with each characters dialogue ending with X said.

The one time Mat said "Devil" just took me completely out of the story. reference to the chair/stool that wouldn't sit right, same time he said "saidered it"

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

This is a really good point -- I've noticed lots of words that seemed out of character. Like a Wise One calling an Aes Sedai an "insufferable woman". Like, I don't remember any Wise Ones saying things like that at all.

Devil is a foreign concept to WoT so far -- Dark One, burn me, etc., but never devil.

FreydyCat•5 yr. ago

Sanderson also loved having one person interrupt another when they were talking.

Ethnafia_125•5 yr. ago

He did have a tough job. I always say with his work we got AN ending to WoT, but not THE ending. Which is really fitting for the whole series really.

All in all, I'm really thankful he was around to finish it.

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

Very good way to put it! haha. I'm also thankful.

daishomaster•5 yr. ago

I knew that it was going to be different due to Brandon taking the reins, but I forced myself to simply enjoy the finale of a wonderful tale.

He does not deserve a critique from me in any way shape or form - he earned, and deserves my gratitude for finishing Jordan's work.

Thank You, Brandon Sanderson, Well Done!

maximumrocker•5 yr. ago

Dude had an Herculean task. I get though.

But, honestly looking back at it he was probably the only one to actually do the job correctly. I love the last 3 books, I know they have a different style and some characters changed a bit. But man we are so lucky to have a completed series and it be completed by a fantastic author and huge fan of the books.

purgamentoram:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

I found Sanderson's style refreshing honestly! He brought his own style but those books still felt like the Wheel of Time for me.

Also, when he took over I couldn't help but notice that I never heard about a female character's 'bosom' again and I was so grateful 😂

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laconicgrin:Dice: (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain)•5 yr. ago

Jordan is a much more talented writer than Sanderson but I am a big fan of how Sanderson finished the series (with the exception of how he butchered Mat). We were fortunate to get such a good ending with another writer doing the finale, though we definitely owe Jordan thanks for providing detailed notes and plotting out his ending ahead of time. Unlike certain other authors...

Fledo:FlameOfTarValon: (Yellow)•5 yr. ago

I enjoy the take that Sanderson adds to the series. I am so appreciative that he finished Wheel of Time!

I agree! I'm very grateful that he accepted, and completed, a task of this magnitude. I imagine knowing that the fans would always compare his writing to the previous books wasn't a whole lot of fun.

Mr Sanderson/u/misborn, I hope you know that you did something very few could have done. In other news, I got the Way of Kings for christmas and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

Petro1313:AncientAesSedai: (Ancient Aes Sedai)•5 yr. ago

I think he said it best in the preface to TGS. He said he wasn’t going to try to emulate RJ’s style, but he was going to try to adapt his own style to fit the world of WoT. I think he did an excellent job finishing the series, it wasn’t perfect, but of all of the mainstream fantasy authors I have a hard time thinking of someone who could do it better in the amount of time Sanderson did. I know not everyone has the same opinion, but it’s pretty obvious that not everyone would be happy with any author who had to undertake such a huge task.

Wargarbler2•5 yr. ago

It’s not perfect, but it never was going to be. I’m so happy that it got finished. And because he was tapped to finish the series I started reading his books and have enjoyed them.

thisguybuda•5 yr. ago

I just finished my first re-read and this is one of the things I was looking for. First time through it felt like fresh energy put into the series, and on re-read I don’t think that’s too far off. Knowing his writing more (my first time through WoT was my first BrandoSando experience) I’m actually really impressed with how much he leaves his own style to try to approach Jordan’s. Now, it’s definitively NOT Jordan’s style, but the dude wrote the final 3 books in a matter of 18-24 months to close the series. That’s freaking amazing. He swings and misses on some things, yes, but nails A LOT more. Androl and Pevara’s story, or rather the detailed development of their character arc in books 12-14, is almost entirely Brandon and to me is a huge success. To Jordan, Androl was just “Genhald”, and the first time he appears it’s not clear if he’s a Taim loyalist or what. Great success for mission impossible

MapCompactOP:Dice: (Dice)•5 yr. ago

Totally agreed. Interesting that you're finding this on a re-read too, I think that's part of what makes it stand out.

thisguybuda•5 yr. ago

I mean, they’re different writers so they should read differently. If Sanderson attempted to copy Jordan’s style exactly, he’d fail. Had to make it his own and on re-read I was actually more impressed with his intervention.

Practical-Cow-4074•5 yr. ago

I recently had this conversation with my brother, he hasn’t actually finished the books because he can’t get past the Mat POV sections. I had a hard time with it myself, but I still have a lot of respect for BS finishing the series. And I have a lot more respect for him after learning about how he had to do it, he had to write his own take on the unfinished sections and merge it with what RJ had written, and he did as well as anyone could have. It’s a lot harder to work around someone else’s writing than to just offer your version of it. And the choices in editing added a large amount of restrictions to what BS could do. I’m still hoping someday we will get a Tolkien style collection of notes and unfinished work from RJ, but at least we were able to finish the series. BS is the reason for that, he deserves credit for taking a pretty terrible job.