Source
r/joinsquad•
Opening_Spring

Everyone Complains, But What Can We Do About It?

You've heard it all before, re: the culture and community of the game, how its changing faster than ever before, and maybe not for the better.

What I'm saying is, bitching about it isn't going to fix it. I'm not telling anyone not to complain, just saying that doesn't do shit for helping the problem.

Some people suggest a longer, more in-depth tutorial. This is a decent idea. Obviously there is too much information to cover everything in a single tutorial, but just a little update to what we have might be nice. ..except that OWI has no intention (IIRC) of making a new tutorial or anything like that.

Here's my idea: ITS OUR JOB.

Yeah, I know, more responsibility, fuck! But bear with me; if we want a specific Community Culture, then it is up to the current Community to Acculturate new players. We gotta build it ourselves, or at least make some coordinated effort for significant change.

All this sounds cool, but How?? I hear you ask!

A dedicated custom Server+Discord+Database+volunteers; that would operate a Tacti-Cool School training academy.

The server would run custom events for training, ranging from smaller skill-building events for specific roles and classes(AT, Armor, Flight, CQC, small unit maneuvering, SL, CO, Mortar, CE/Mining, etc etc etc) to large scale skirmishes for "live" exercise of the Skills (particularly useful for SLs and COs to practice actual strategy, and for learning infantry to get a feel for organized gameplay on a large scale.)

What makes Squad unique is Teamwork. When we use it, games are more fun for everyone, and we all suck a little less. If we want a community that plays a certain(definitely correct) way, then we need to make it happen ourselves, with Teamwork.

EDIT:: forgot to mention the "greenlist". A list (shared between participating servers) of players who've passed the basic level of training with the tacticool school. Nothing extreme, just the basics. Maybe we could add skill certifications, but that would be more work, so ya know. We'd have to do it.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

Posted Jan 21, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC · edited

720
skuva•

Not sure why so many similar posts today but...

This doesn't work the way you think. Players who want to learn the game will find their way, through tutorials on youtube, communities discord, asking, etc. Most of the players just don't care, they come, play like any other generic shooter, get bored and leave.

Most of the players will never join communities discord (unless they get banned and need to contest). Most of them will never even ask anything, because they are not used to playing with a microphone.

Its a structural problem in gaming. And its a problem of the game so easily allowing new players to be thrown right into chaos, by not having mandatory tutorials.

21
Opening_SpringOP•

So what you're suggesting is; OWI should make more, and mandatory, tutorials?

and Do Nothing otherwise?

2
Stahlstaub•

would be nice if owi did a better tutorial, but there are nice vids out there that just need to be stickied somewhere... would be nice of the mods to make and maintain such a post on this reddit... that's a starter for this community... trainings are very nice for people who want to invest time and want to achieve something... i got no time and no power to do it myself, as my work and family need mostly all of my dedication... still i love the game and the community, which is much less toxic than someone would think reading this subreddit... so i try to offer help whenever i can, because i always have 5mins here and there, but can't invest time in planning and executing trainings...

2
skuva•

Well the way the game appeals to new players greatly influences in the general mentality. Players buying ArmA will normaly have a way more serious mindset than players buying Squad.

The current situation of Squad is one of the consequences of appealing to the more casual player base, while having a game with a so steep learning curve.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
No-West-3188•

I've been playing this game for several years. If it's now "my job" to teach new players, then this game is no longer for me.

For DECADES I've tried to find a game like Squad where I didn't need to be a part of a clan to play a game with teamwork and communication (SOCOM showed me this is possible, but there's been almost nothing since). I thought Squad was it as ARMA proved to be way too involved and required scheduling time to play in order to get into a game where people used mics. I don't want to schedule time to play a video game. I want to hop on and get the game experience I am expecting, which does not involve teaching others how to play the game.

Imagine you love to play basketball, but every time you went to the park for a pickup game, it was filled with toddlers that you are expected to teach how to play basketball. In reality, those toddlers don't want to play basketball, they want to play with a basketball on a basketball court while others on that court are trying to play basketball. If every time you went to that park to play you were expected to not play but teach the toddlers, would you keep going back there to play basketball? This is where I am at with Squad right now. I want to play Squad, but every time I try, it's just a bunch of toddlers playing with the toys in Squad and not actually playing Squad in any competent manner.

So sure, start a daycare and teach the toddlers how to play. I won't work for that daycare but wish you all the best of luck.

12
B_Three•

Here's my idea: ITS OUR JOB.

No, it's not. Most of us have jobs and they're not this.

The problem is that this game is 100% built onto SLs, but:

  1. It does a very poor job in explaining new players what a good SL should do.
  2. It does quite a poor job in letting the SL do their tasks smoothly.

​

  1. The existing tutorial is like an introduction class to maths where they explain you how te numbers and operators are called; and nothing else. The offered tutorial is made for people who haven't played an FPS in their life (around 0.00000015% of Squads playerbase); it does not address the diferences between Squad and other FPSs.

But a tutorial is not everything that can be done. Contextual pop ups are used in many games that require you to understand concepts over time.

General tips are played on loading screens or in the main menu in most games. Some are even interactive. You could even have them come up while people are downed.

  1. Asset placement is a pain in the ass: you sometimes have false greens, assets clipping through roofs so you have to start anew, you have to eyeball angles/height when placing tows...

Marking and removing marks on maps can be really unprecise. Right click menu for squad management is still bugged. You can either see the classes or the looking direction of squadmates on map, not both. You have to remeber how shit is called because only flags are named on map (in what military briefing do they present you with a map where landmarks are not already named and just the objectives are? seriously, this would do so f*cking much to improve communication!!). Vehicle requests do not show what vehicle is requested and the shit still comes up even if 90% of the time a squadmate just wants ammo. There is no way to directily communicate to squad 10 and onwards, so in 50v50 comand comms are a shitshow.

So yeah, there is a lot of things that OWI can and should do before leaning back and letting the community handle everything as usual. Some of those things are not that hard or costly to implement and could go a very long way in improving the match quality.

8
Captain_SquadMuttrah 2020•

So what you're suggesting is; OWI should make more, and mandatory, tutorials? and Do Nothing otherwise?

I'm partially replying to this comment, I just don't want my reply to get buried in that thread since it's relevant to the discussion as a whole.

There are many, many resources out there for players who have a desire to improve at the game. I promise that most of the people who are complaining here aren't in the 'Do Nothing' stage, they're in the 'I've Done All I Can Without Hating Myself' stage.

Even in pub games, 95% of people in this community will take the time to educate blueberries who are asking questions an earnestly trying to improve. There's a lot of bitching on this Subreddit from people who are tired of doing that and aren't seeing results from it, but you'll rarely see anyone complain in-game about having to train somebody. That's why you'll regularly see posts complaining about the state of the current community right next to posts from new players complimenting how warm and welcoming this community is.

The new players that choose to come to this subreddit are actively trying to learn/improve, and consequently, having a great experience interacting with veteran members of the community.

The new players that actively work against the team to fulfil their shortsighted/selfish/misguided desires don't come to the subreddit, don't search out any guides/tutorials, and are the thorn that the experienced community is constantly complaining about.

TL;DR: Tutorials help new players with the right mindset. The problems with Squad's community stem from the fact that people join the game with the wrong mindset.

3
Opening_SpringOP•

I'm not suggesting tutorials. Or manuals.

I'm suggesting teachers and volunteer opfor and live fire exercises.

I'm not suggesting a (just) a new resource for already-interested players to refine advanced skills, but also a basic boot camp greenlist. Which would incentivize new players to participate, especially if it doesn't suck(see: reading a 30-page manual, watching 8-hour playlists, etc). Interactive learning from humans would be faster, more engaging, and fun.

A shared greenlist among servers (think "fastpass" at those amusement parks) would incentivize participation. as would the idea that you will kill more and die less and generally git gud.

YouTube creators. Server rule page. Server title. Server announcements. Reddit forum posts/replies. Steam reviews. These could all be leveraged to increase the reach to people who might not otherwise "do the homework".

Also, as far as "I've Done All I Can Without Hating Myself" that's totally fine. But they must acknowledge that Bitchin' ain't Fixin'. And for people who would still like to see the game have longevity and go in a positive direction, maybe we should try something new?

Idk.

1
AnalCuntMasterJesus•

How would you incentivize players to join these training servers/events? I don’t see how a green list is feasible without significant collaboration with OWI. Would these servers run 24/7? Would the people who run them be paid? If not I don’t see how it’s much different than what we have now just a bit more organized. Would they be scheduled events? How would that be communicated? 99% players are never going to join a community discord so how do you let them know about these things?

You have to create these things with the lowest common denominator of player in mind. Most players just want to join a server and shoot things. I started playing after the last free weekend. I’ve watched all kinds of tutorials and asked questions in game since and understood the kind of game this was going in, but I would have had no interest in joining a training server to have some tacticool dork tell me how to play and I don’t think many people coming from the non-milsim crowd would. The second you make people have to schedule when they play it makes the game seem like a job which will instantly turn (many) people off.

Squad is in a bind because you have the milsim crowd and, let’s be honest, the “there isn’t a good Battlefield game right now crowd” with various shades of grey in-between. Many of the problems that plague Squad are FPS gaming issues not Squad specific issues but are exasperated by how much it relies on communication and people having mic. I honestly think the biggest Squad specific issue right now is that even as a now somewhat experienced player I have no clue how the meta of this game works, or how to expect a game to play out on any one map/layer. This becomes an issue when you’re being told to do something by a SL and you have clue how it relates to helping us win the game. I’m sure many new players run into this and I’m not sure what the solution is.

2
Opening_SpringOP•

"How would you incentivize players to join these training servers/events?"

"Most players just want to join a server and shoot things."

The greenlist is the incentive. You get to play more. Wait in lines less.

How to make without OWI: just add them to the whitelist. There's no need to actually make a separate "green" list in the game queue.

24/7? Probably not, but maybe with some collaboration from EU players.

Cash payment for running these servers? No I don't think so. I don't think it would be necessary, or helpful in the long term. But maybe.

Training can be arranged by theme for certain days, or with events.

Communication: did you read the post you are replying to?

Rr: schedules. Trains operate on a schedule, but I don't worry about rearranging my whole day to use one. I just go for the closest time/next one that's convenient for me. Doctors also operate on schedules, and you have to make appointments in advance with barely any availability, and then wait a long time and possibly even then still start late. I'm suggesting we do something closer to the former, not the latter.

"I would have had no interest in joining a training server to have some tacticool dork tell me how to play"

"even as a now somewhat experienced player I have no clue how the meta of this game works, or how to expect a game to play out on any one map/layer."

Ok well. If you don't want to learn from someone, how do you expect to learn these meta?

"I’m sure many new players run into this and I’m not sure what the solution is." Gee, I wonder what a solution could look like...

1
AnalCuntMasterJesus•

Ok well. If you don't want to learn from someone, how do you expect to learn these meta?

So what does one of these servers to teach the meta look like? Whoever is running it plans out the game and the SLs explain what’s going on as the game plays out or you just let it play out and SLs have to explain on the fly? That’s probably more entertaining than watching a YouTube video but it’s essentially the same thing and would require an crazy level of organization and work to ask of volunteers. That’s what I was trying to get at. There’s also the issue of quality control of the people doing the teaching. Who would handle that?

The greenlist is the incentive. You get to play more. Wait in lines less.

I don’t think getting added to the whitelist is a big enough benefit if you want this training to bring in the casual or laid back audience. I don’t think you’re average player cares that much about getting into a particular server. They’ll just pick one with the smallest or no queue.

I'm suggesting we do something closer to the former, not the latter.

And trains run all day. To avoid burnout and operate like that you would need a huge amount of people with a huge amount of knowledge about the game to volunteer over several nights a week for what would have to be several hours I’d guess. If you can find people passionate enough about Squad to do that for free then go for it but I think thats a tough ask long term. Maybe with some coordination between OWI and the larger communities in the game they could do in game training events with incentives like weapon skins (nothing crazy) around sales or free weekends? Just a thought, I didn’t want to be a total downer.

1
Stahlstaub•

there are already communities that do teaching and events... didn't have the time to personally take part in one, but it's difficult with a toddler in the back...

would be nice if communities link up and get some stuff standardized, so people may find a training in their acceptable time range... for me it would be 2100-2300 Central European Timezone...

2
AtomicFirehawk•

There are many communities that foster the tactically minded gameplay style that so many of us enjoy. Each unit has varying degrees, depth, and style of training (my unit has a two month long training course). There are also events where units participate in matches against each other, either one on one or in a group of units vs another group of different units.

Unfortunately it's entirely on the players to go out and find these units if they're inclined towards that play style

1
Stahlstaub•

yeah some advertise on the official discord, so rather tham reddit that would be the go to place at the moment...

1
lil_Big_chillen•

I agree 100%. I just dont think it will work due to the culture of not reading instructions and if I dont get it right away it's the devs fault mindset.

2
SeasonMajestic•

Yeah I’ve given up after the Twitch Live stream. OWI’s approach of not fixing something just because it’s only played by 1-4 people per game turned me off. It’s been manageable but the gameplay is no longer fun and the features are pushing further from what the core fanbase who has played the game since kickstarter was made to expect.

I always said Squad will be a game that will be like Warcraft 3 where even decades after there’s still the core fanbase that play it but this one - I’m sure it will die out just as fast as they released their free weekends.

Plus their development has gone worse and worse over the years. The driving being wonky has been around for years now and still they won’t do anything about it. The fucking medic cries that are nothing but annoying that everyone wants removed - they keep.

OWI can be compared to a City Council.

Slow to improve shit that improves stuff and wastes time on keeping useless projects just because some politician (dev’s) ego is too high he can’t allow his “amazing idea” to be made redundant due to community disapproval of said feature.

2
Kewis23"SpiRiTuAL sUCceSsOr"•

Does Squad even have an official manual like PR does? That would be a decent start.

2
AnotherLightInTheSky•

We want manual!

We want manual!

1
WoodenIncubus•

My suggestion, stop playing on noob friendly servers. I frequent a server that takes it quote seriously and communicates often. The only times ive had the same problems people on this reddit is when i join the 100/100 +14waiting Noob friendly servers where people seem to think the squad named "Leftovers" is there to turn the tides of the game

1
klight13•

The people who would care enough to do this are the players who are already watching all of the instruction videos, doing their own research, and learning on their own. The people who you see who do need this but won’t use it are the same people who will tell you it’s just a game man, after they blue on blue 6 of their teammates. They won’t care if there is a super in depth training or not.

1