What’s up with r/collapse and this close minded approach towards crypto?

Economic

I don’t think I’m going out on a limb by saying that many of you are societal skeptics. This is a good thing and will likely serve you well in the water wars to come. It’s also very likely many will join your position and this subreddit in not only acknowledging but preparing for collapse.

Now, I’ve been involved in the Ethereum space since mid 2017 and it’s proven to be its own experiment in skepticism towards the US centered financial system. For me, I’m in the middle of both worlds where it’s likely we will not be solving the problems life is facing on earth, and where decentralized finance controlled by no one entity is the future. It’s not really a hard position to take when you look at trends for either perspective.

I get that proof of work (as popularized by Bitcoin) is very energy intensive, however many of you do not seem to realize that Ethereum (second largest crypto) is going to upgrade to proof of stake sometime next year reducing energy costs by 99.95%. There’s also the case that once this transition happens the token (ether) will transition into a deflationary coin that removes 1 - 2% of the circulating supply yearly. There’s very little doubt in my mind about its applications over the next 10 years regardless of what happens to the planet.

Now I don’t really need to care about convincing you, this isn’t a dogecoin pump post and it’s about as debatable as the the idea of fixing our climate. I do care about convincing you that this tech will be relied upon when the nation state of your choosing fails. So at least pay attention and observe what’s happening in DEFI. This is coming from someone who really benefited from these services throughout the pandemic.

Posted Jul 11, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC · edited

0119
xXSoulPatchXxǝuᴉɟ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ•

This should be self evident.

It is a waste of energy.

It is/will continue to exacerbate climate change, for imaginary "wealth".

It feeds into the cycle of greed that needs to be broken, but probably never will...sealing our fate.

It sums up perfectly what is wrong with the "world" (humans...we mean humans...when we say that BTW)

55
Fuckyousochard•

Lmao this is the top comment, so much ignorance, this is the kind of person that thought the Internet was a fad

-11

You realize that on this forum we have actual neo-luddites right?

There are people on this forum that will straight up, unironically quote Ted Kaczynski...


It's not the only view here by any means, but there's a decent chunk that think industrialization itself is self terminating...

I'm not sure based on your comment if you actually understand what these people are saying, because fad doesn't reflect their understanding of cancerous growth.


Some of us, we don't hate technology on principle, but Crypto has a lot of black marks against it that the maximalist hand wave away.

It reflects an even deeper and more disgusting transition than fractional reserve banking in my humble opinion. Crypto is literally money where proof of ownership is possession, and if you can't see the problem with that, then we've got some divergent worldviews.

13
xXSoulPatchXxǝuᴉɟ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ•

Yeah, I have built computers from components for over two decades as a side hobby, but you are right, I thought the "Internet was a fad"

Moron.

5
blackdowneyOP•

I’m talking about a network that is going to reduce its footprint by 99.95%. I don’t expect you to know that, but just know it’s not a valid point.

Cycle of greed. Hmm. I think what you mean is cycle of non-sustainability which I completely agree with.

-15
xXSoulPatchXxǝuᴉɟ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ•

I said what I said. We blew past sustainability couple hundred years ago. Greed is the root problem. Always has been.

I don't care how efficient it "will get eventually" one watt used for this bullshit is one watt too much.

All currency, especially crypto is a waste of time and effort, and crypto has the bonus feature that it is actively killing us. So that's a step up I guess.

28
Tricky_Troll•

All currency, especially crypto is a waste of time and effort, and crypto has the bonus feature that it is actively killing us. So that's a step up I guess.

Good luck creating an economy based on bartering with goods and services. You're reeeaallly gonna need it.

-5
creepindacellar•

it sounds like you think that the plan is to like collapse and then rebuild right back or something. I don't think that is how it will work out. I think we are in for a more permanent kind of collapse.

9
blackdowneyOP•

Alright well I like to root for a technology that’s going to make driving to an ATM obsolete, along with every banking institution.

-8
xXSoulPatchXxǝuᴉɟ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ•

Alright, well, I would like to have a habitable earth.

It also annoys me people are wasting brainpower on this stupid shit and not more important and pressing issues that could truly improve life for all, not just a select few.

25
Tricky_Troll•

It is a waste of energy.

For no more than one more year until Ethereum moves away from wasteful Proof of Work consensus algorithm to the uber efficient Proof of Stake algorithm as OP outlined in his post.

It is/will continue to exacerbate climate change, for imaginary "wealth".

You can't call crypto imaginary and pretend that most of the value behind gold or the dollar isn't imaginary. All money is largely imaginary by definition. Money is a shared belief that something of limited utility/value has more utility/value than it really does. Ultimately, unless you're trading in food or resources you really need, there is an enormous amount of imaginary value in money. You can't eat gold and when the whole world is starving, most people won't value your gold as they used to. So in a collapse scenario, most monies will be as worthless as crypto. The only difference being that where crypto will lose 100% of its value, gold may lose 90%. But as I said, what good is a tiny bit of gold in a world where food is the real scarce asset?

It feeds into the cycle of greed that needs to be broken, but probably never will...sealing our fate

You're absolutely right. Greed is inevitable. But if we are looking out for ourselves here in a post-collapse world then you want to be greedy so I don't see how this argument works against a decentralised finance platform which could survive (and likely even thrive) in a world after a collapse of the traditional financial system.

-15
xXSoulPatchXxǝuᴉɟ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ•

All money is largely imaginary by definition.

I know that, don't try to school me.

Stop shilling this bullshit here. It is not welcome by many of us. Stop trying to convince us. Just. Stop.

You guys asked, I answered with my reasons. Just because you don't like them, well....tough shit really.

Then you discuss us, as if we aren't here talking, about what you believe we know and don't know.

Just STFU for real.

12
Tricky_Troll•

Wow, I really don't understand why you took that so personally! All I was doing was spreading some facts about a commonly misunderstood technology and you responded as if I insulted your family or something lmao.

-4

"Some facts" bro!

6
Gotmykingz88•

You people in here are like leftist q-anons. This is hilarious. The banking system consume waaaaaaay more energy than crypto does. Yet you buy into this media bullshit about crypto being a yuge energy thief. Absolutely hilarious.

-17
anon383771•

Yeah we don't like the global banking system either. It is a huge waste of energy.

23
Not_Selling_Eth•

“The global banking system is a huge waste of energy but we arbitrarily don’t like crypto either, so we’re gonna side with banking”

-8
anon383771•

No, you're not listening. Both are a huge waste of resources, because capitalism is a huge waste of resources. I HAVE to participate in capitalism and the traditional banking system in order to acquire food and shelter in the region of the world I'm located in. I can't pay my rent in cash, and my employer won't pay me in cash. Or fucking ETH for that matter.

So basically I have to have a bank account to be a person. Due to my line of work I also have to have a smartphone with me at all times. If I don't like that, I can be homeless. It isn't safe to be homeless where I live. So realistically I can either play the game or I can fucking die. And in short order, those choices will also amount to the same thing because capitalism, in its current form, is a suicide cult.

Look man, I get it. I've been a computer guy my whole life. I really wish that crypto could solve the problems with the global banking system. Maybe it can. It doesn't fucking matter though, because you can't eat money.

Enjoy your lambos while the biosphere collapses around you.

19
[deleted]•

[removed]

-2
Lol_maga_people•

Crypto doesn't work without electricity

39
[deleted]•

Or the internet.

28
KRASSVS•

Like this conversation you mean?

3
blackdowneyOP•

Neither of which are going away?

-13
spectacularlarlar•

You sure you know what sub you're in?

36
blackdowneyOP•

We’re going into some dark ages where 95% of the human race is dead by 2100. I think we’ll have electricity / the internet.

-14
moon-worshiper•

They both go away when you lose utility power.

13
Not_Selling_Eth•

Neither do we.

0
Lawlesslawton•

I suggest you read “the machine stops” by E M Forster. Humanity and its connection to the natural world are what truly matter. People don’t really like Crypto for what it is, another example of human greed and folly.

38
blackdowneyOP•

Was it folly when I bought Ether at $200 and used it as collateral to borrow some USD because I didn’t want to sell my investments but I had to pay rent during a pandemic? Once the price of my collateral went up I paid back the debt with the Ether I locked up and closed the loan all without a bank.

That’s not folly to me. Again I don’t really care to convince anyone but I guess I’m looking for someone to out think my position, challenge it realistically, etc...

-17
Lawlesslawton•

I don’t think anyone here cares how you use currency to pay your debts. Not judging you for getting involved in crypto. I’m sure you must realize that all this “generated” wealth is reliant on energy generated from mostly non renewable sources. It is also extremely vulnerable because it relies on technology to always “work” to support it. IE the network goes down there will be no way to spend it. Again humanity and our connection with the natural world are what really matter.

33
Fuckyousochard•

If the Internet goes down, how would your bank get you your money? And let's be real, you would have alot more to worry about than money in that situation

1
SQL_INVICTUS•

You could have done the same with investing in oil or a coal plant instead of Ethereum. That you got some money out of it doesn't mean it's clean or good.

15
blackdowneyOP•

I beg to differ that offering decentralized financial services to anyone in the world with a cell phone isn’t worth it.

-4
SQL_INVICTUS•

Maybe, but that was not your argument.

11
hey_Mom_watch_this•

you need to read;

Memoirs of extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds by Charles Mackay,

https://archive.org/details/memoirsofextraor01mack/page/n7/mode/2up

read: The Mississippi Scheme, The South Sea Bubble and The Tulip Mania,

you are doing exactly what people were doing during those manias.

12
[deleted]•

Predatory capitalism. When you see a video of a whale that swallows a gigantic amount of small fish, that will be the story of crypto.

34
blackdowneyOP•

How?

3
[deleted]•

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

In 2013, Nout Wellink, former president of the Dutch Central Bank, described Bitcoin as "worse than the tulip mania", adding, "At least then you got a tulip, now you get nothing."

23
hey_Mom_watch_this•

lol.. tulip mania but without any tulips!

I like that very much!

14
Tricky_Troll•

Tulip mania barely lasted a month and had no new technology or anything kind of scarcity backing them and blockchains have lasted 11 years so far, are doing better than ever and have new technology backing them.

Hmm, something is leading me to believe there's a slight chance that there could possibly be a false equivalency here but I really can't quite be sure, you know?

Also, I love how you quote a central banker, quite possibly the one job most at threat by crypto and decentralised finance. There's no way he'd be biased at all!

1
gizmozed•

I for one am amused to no end at the people who blather on about the "blockchain". It is nothing more than a permanent distributed ledger, it is not some new magical invention and it will not scale to the speed necessary to ever support a currency of any kind.

Folk who know little about technology are impressed with this but those who do know something are not. ""Crypto"s jumped the shark completely when a coin created as a joke (Doge) started gaining traction. The whole mess crypto mess is a hot air classic momentum ponzi play that will make a few people rich and a lot of people lose almost their entire "investment".

Good luck.

12

This is entirely false.

Tulip mania barely lasted a month and had no new technology or anything kind of scarcity backing them

Tulip mania was the result of the discovery of certain aspects in selective breeding... Tulips, that were traditionally had monochromatic bulbs were bred to have novel colors and patterns (That were indeed scarce at the time.)

(Edit: In addition to selective breeding, it also involved a complex process of infecting tulips with a specific virus to create the most desired patterns.)


So I'm not understanding what your point is here. In fact if anything, it should be a cautionary tale where a very important discovery led to speculative financial behavior, and it took approximately 300 years for the most important breeding program to produce it's great work, disease resistant, drawfed spring wheat. Thought salt resistant rice is going to make a play for being the goat in our lifetime.

It should be a tale about the amount of real, honest work that needs to go into making a novel technology actually accomplish meaning change.

7
necro_kederekt•

This sub definitely has a hate-boner for crypto.

It’s mostly because we see other people pointing to crypto as some kind of savior. We simply have much bigger fish to fry than centralized finance. If centrally controlled currencies — especially the new looming threat of centrally controlled digital currencies — were the only threat we faced in the world... then maybe decentralized finance could liberate people from that. To be clear, crypto is subject to manipulation, which is sometimes as bad as being centrally controlled.

Most people on this sub see crypto as an embodiment of greed. It’s really just a tool. Money is a tool for facilitating trade. It’s only an embodiment of greed because of the culture it exists in; the culture is the problem, not the crypto. If you see crypto as a way of making money, you’re part of the problem.

I only hate crypto inasmuch as it’s a golden calf for ignorant techno-utopians. It won’t solve our problem. It may solve a problem along the way.

Here’s how I see the future of cryptocurrency; the more secure crypto (and decentralized networks) will be a tool for buying and selling things that are outlawed by the increasingly authoritarian governments of the world. Probably weapons and the materials for building weapons, mostly. Eventually crypto will become obsolete when the electrical grid becomes too unreliable.

26
Tricky_Troll•

Thank you for this answer. As an outsider crypto enthusiast this is exactly the answer I was hoping for and it is clear that you have at least a basic understanding of crypto unlike many of the other commenters in this thread.

As more of an optimist (in large part thanks to the optimism of the Ethereum developer community) I think that the game theory behind crypto will actually see a world where the west embraces much of crypto and simply takes the pros (they can create permissioned centrally controlled currencies on a decentralised platform like Ethereum and everything is in the open so there is little to no privacy) with the cons like not being able to stop people from using decentralised finance and not being able to freeze peoples funds upon the slightest suspicion of wrong doing as traditional finance has done for years. Those cons aren't even that bad when you consider that despite the technology being there for the layman to have self-sovereign money and finance, the vast majority will likely not take it and keep using banks or "crypto banks" which are custodial. Why? Because the average joe is too stupid and too lazy. That is all assuming there is no big collapse in the near future as this sub suggests there will be. No comment on that from me, that is a discussion for another thread.

3
KRASSVS•

Crypto is pretty much the only tool we have currently to undermine and democratize the current power structure.

-7
gizmozed•

The minute cryptos get anywhere near accomplishing that, they will be firewalled out of existence.

(Not that that was going to ever happen anyway)

13
Tricky_Troll•

The game theory behind crypto says this won't happen. Imagine what would have happened if the USA didn't like the internet and decided that they would block it instead. All of the innovation and economic value being created would have moved elsewhere. No more silicon valley for the USA and they would have been left behind. The only way crypto gets banned is if every country is in on it. Even then, only one country needs to defect to suck up all the innovation and economic value. Game theory means that someone defecting is inevitable and once that happens, most countries will also defect when they realise what they're missing out on.

2
[deleted]•

The currency of collapse will be skills and seeds.

25
Basatta•

Ah great, proof of stake? So it's like paper money but if the power goes out, you starve to death!

18
moon-worshiper•

Because it is idiotic, makes no rational sense, and is the next Pet Rock.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/06/16/is-bitcoin-destroying-the-earth/

This should be a red flag. Electric energy consumption for cryptocurrency imaginary 'gold mining' has dropped 60% since November 2020.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-electricity-consumption-falls-to-november-2020-levels-data

If rolling power blackouts or loss of utility power starts happening in August, 'cryptocurrency' is going to collapse, like every hot-air Pyramid scheme, when a bear market starts happening.

13
Tricky_Troll•

Did you even read OP's post? Ethereum, by far the largest programmable blockchain is moving away from proof of work within a year and will use less than 0.1% of the power it currently uses.

0†
SnakeDokt0r•

Goddamn this sub has a crypto-hate boner. Just reciting canned lines, when OP addressed many of these issues in the post.

1
Jad324•

The post is about Ethereum. All your sauce articles are about Bitcoin.

-1†
Toyake•

Oh wow a merkle tree + proof of work, amazing. Let's consume more energy than some countries to see if this bad boy can crack 7 transactions per second.

13
LavoP•

Did you not see the part about proof of stake?

-7
Toyake•

Or LN? Or nimblewimble? Or Eth 2.0? Or or or

All outdated memes my due POS just reintroduces centralization to a system that's only selling point is that it's "decentralized"

5
Tricky_Troll•

Are you suggesting that ETH 2.0, the network with over 100,000 validator nodes distributed amongst thousands of unique operators is centralised? Lmao.

https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution

1
Toyake•

ETH 2.0 has no release date (because it doesn't work) so weird that you would use that.

And no, 100,000 is not decentralized when the populace is in the billions and the barrier to entry is $60k. That's about 4x the global avg annual salary.

2
LavoP•

How does it reintroduce centralization if it allows anyone with 32 ETH (could have been very cheap back in the day) and a very cheap computer to participate as a validator?

-3
Toyake•

Do you think that a $60k barrier to entry causes more or less distribution of power on a global scale?

What if it was 10,000 ETH required? More or less distribution of power.

5
[deleted]•

Currency caused the collapse.

11
hey_Mom_watch_this•

my take is that the existence of crypto's have made crimes like ransomware attacks possible,

due to the electronic transfer of funds that is untraceable it's the perfect crime,

if ransomware attacks snowball, fuelled by victims paying the ransoms and the attackers never getting caught I can see govt's having no choice but to shut down crypto's as the only solution.

I understand the benefits and theory behind crypto's but humans are imperfect creatures and they are abusing crypto's and using them for illicit purposes,

it's ok to call it 'fuck you' money but when the 'fuck you' gestures start paralysing economies it becomes a national security issue and will get stamped on.

7
DANKKrishcollapsus•

so many spooks in a single post holy shit

5
Ghostifier2k0•

If even half of these collapse scenarios happen the only thing we'll be trading is a can of peaches for a left shoe.

5
alwaysZenryoku•

I love tulips

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

5
Mr-Punday•

I’ve seen the same sentiment towards crypto here in Collapse before. However, there is also cause for concerns in regards to security and manipulation of the crypto space. What people don’t seem to realize is that crypto is a work in progress and it’s still in pre-adoption phase. But once it becomes more “lean” and highly applicable for the digital economy (which it certainly will), it’s the obvious path of the financial revolution - regardless of the Collapse.

3
_Gallows_Humor•

I am uncertain when the currency collapses, but I know it will happen soon. Crypto currencies are tied to these collapsing worldwide currencies. Look around at the bolivar or the lebanese pound for recent examples of collapsing currencies. Cryptos, including ether, aren't in the same ballpark as bullets, ie. sound investment strategy.

Good luck with your stupid crypto investment strategy. It won't work by 2050 when the preindustrial temperature hits 6C (5% chance per IPCC)

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[deleted]•

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[deleted]•

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1