Source
r/keto•
evinf

Looking for Advice - Read Within (Please).

I was considering trying to put all this in the title, but I figured it'd be way too long.

Here's the situation:

I work out roughly 5 times per week (3 times of just cardio and two times of just upper-body weights). I was trying to follow the C25K program, and then I started keto.

Now, every time I work out I feel out of energy. I've had to digress in my running. Going longer than 8-10 minutes is overwhelming.

I wouldn't be worried about it if I was still losing weight. I lost about 10 pounds in the first week after starting keto 3-4 weeks ago, but have since been hovering at about 184.

I'm somewhat conflicted. I'm not sure if I need to be eating more calories so that I can get better, longer workouts. It seems like that would simply cause me to not lose weight.

Do I instead need more protein? Shakes aren't an option (too expensive, tbqh), but I'm sure I could find a good, cheap food that would work.

Just looking for some ideas and feedback. Thanks in advance.

Posted Feb 1, 2012, 3:04 PM UTC

047
bongcrosbyPhoto Friday? More like Water Friday.•

Food log, please.

6
evinfOP•

I should have expected that reply as well. I don't do food logs. Mainly because I simply can't bring myself to being that obsessive-compulsive/anal. I have plenty of personal reasons why I refuse to, but I'm not trying to derail my own thread.

-5
omg-onoz•

this makes it a bit harder to diagnose the problem. ಠ_ಠ

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anaaliushttp://thelowcarbrecipes.wordpress.com/•

With out the information that tracking your food gives you, any advice is based on guessing.

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evinfOP•

I'm not looking for a diagnosis, if I was, I'd be seeking medical advice.

-6
epakaStick to savory.•

Makes it difficult to give feedback when we have no idea what you're putting into your body.

2
enforce1•

Would you believe me if I told you that the 8-10 minute burnout will pass, and that you have to soldier through it?

Sorry to be the guy to say this, but a healthy dose of HTFU is necessary here. It would also be helpful for us to see a food log.

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bongcrosbyPhoto Friday? More like Water Friday.•

^

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evinfOP•

I did a 20-minute run (5m warmup and cd walks) and it was next to impossible. It's not that I'm too winded, it's that I feel as though my legs are going to give out. Perhaps the issue is I'm concerned that the lack of energy could lead to an injury.

As I said, I am not willing to do a food log. Look, I work 10-12 hour days 5 days a week, plus make it to the gym. Adding an additional chore of trying to track exactly how much of what I ate when and where isn't something I'm willing to do at this time.

That isn't intended to vent on you. I understand the viability and benefit of a food log. People wanting to actually give advice will have to accept that I'm not going to do one. What I eat in a day depends entirely and when and if I have time to do so. As you said, it'd be helpful to see one, but others seem to think it is somehow mandatory. That's just not true, as I lost 75 pounds without a food log.

This is the problem and reason why I avoided for so long (and likely will continue to avoid) posting in a diet subreddit - while the general rules of the diet are outlined, everyone seems to think that it's their way or the highway.

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bongcrosbyPhoto Friday? More like Water Friday.•

I don't appreciate the negativity you've replied with, honestly. At no point was this a man hunt to force you to log anything. It is usually the first question asked of anything having any issues. Some people DO keto freestyle and I understand that. But if you want to carry on with such a condescending attitude that the whole lot of us think we're doctors. You can continue on to another subreddit that can help you, since we're entirely impossible. Frankly, I don't care what kind of job you have or how much you work out or have lost in the past; basic dietary discipline isn't hard, friend.

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evinfOP•

Because when I answer the question once, I guess I just presume people would read that response and not continue to try to address the question from the same approach.

Consider this admittedly overblown hypothetical - I have no legs. I ask for some ideas of cardio exercises. Your response is to go buy carbonfiber running devices. While that might be the best solution in your eyes, it isn't something I'd consider because of some limiting factor - time, cost, whatever. If after telling you that you continued to push that avenue, you might understand my frustration.

I'm not saying it's the best analogy. I'm just saying that when an avenue is presented and I say while I understand its merits it isn't something I'm considering, why continue to push it? I'm not saying YOU as in the person writing under the username "bongcrosby," I'm saying people in general.

Sorry for being defensive, but your attitude is equally condescending. Saying "basic dietary discipline isn't hard" is a bullshit, condescending remark. You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't count calories or log what they eat lacks "basic dietary discipline." Then how could you claim "some people DO keto freestyle and I understand that." You contradict yourself.

So, while I might be defensive about answering the same question over and over, you come off as arrogant and stand-offish. What do you say we both take some deep breaths and try to have a quasi-civil conversation?

-7
wtfambz•

Honestly, it would take less than 5 minutes of your "hectic" day to log your food. You come here asking for advice, and when people take the time out of their "hectic" days, you decide to be a dick about it. The only reason his response seemed condescending is because you've been condescending and arrogant throughout this whole thread. If you're not open to advice, then why are you here asking for help? Without a log of your diet, it's next to impossible to give you advice as to what you should do to fix the issue.

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enforce1•

If you ask for help, advice, whatever... It becomes a measure in problem solving.

I am completely unable to help without the appropriate clues. All i can say is that I am also a runner, I understand, and that it gets better.

EDIT: Just for funsies... you said it was next to impossible. But it wasn't impossible. Congratulations!

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evinfOP•

Maybe I chose my words poorly, and if so, I'm sorry. I was seeking advice on dealing with a lack of energy during working out which I didn't experience before starting a keto diet.

I wanted to know if it was a common experience and if so whether simple adjustment or "carbing up" were common solutions.

I understand individual experiences will vary as will the solutions. I wasn't asking for a diagnosis or for you to solve my problem, I simply wanted to know how others solved their own when, and if, they experienced it.

The thread derailed into me having to defend my decision NOT to log foods, which I tried to leave vague with an initial answer that it was a personal decision not to do so. Others in their replies either ignored that reply, skipped over it or refuse to think people can become healthier without counting calories.

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enforce1•

I am a runner, and I overcame this. It took a few weeks, and it sucked, but I got through it. Soldier on.

I tried to remain positive the whole time :-/

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buckinkaedingWith Powers Comparable to Wonderboy!•

Every single person wants to see food log to give advice, OP, who is new to keto, says food log is useless.

Doesn't really make sense OP.

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[deleted]•

If you're working out less, you can't afford calorically to eat as much as you were doing C25K every day or 5 days a week.

I've found that my cardio endurance has fallen as well, used to do 90min no problem, now 40 is a challenge. However, the best recommended exercise for keto are really aerobic exercise and strength training.

It may be worth trying some aerobics instead of cardio to get your burn rate back up, and reevaluating your caloric needs.

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evinfOP•

But that's my point - I'm working out just as much, I just feel much more tired. Do I need to be overeating (eating when I'm not even hungry) because of the fact that the higher fat diet is more satiating?

0
[deleted]•

I would never recommend eating when you're not hungry. It's likely just because you no longer have the carbs or glycogen to run cardio like you once did, and you can't regain that without carbing up. Your options are basically look into TKD diets or do aerobics/less hard cardio, as recommended. I know a lot of people lose endurance for cardio when they start keto.

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[deleted]•

you are probably still keto-adapting. your body is used to being lazy and using glucose for quick energy, now it has to get used to using fat for energy. i think it usually takes a month or two before people are fully adapted. how hard are you pushing yourself with cardio? from what i've read, low-aerobic exercise and strength training seems to be the best exercise you can do. heart rates of 85%+, your body will start looking to glucose for fuel, and on a low carb diet this is bad news. even considering this though, many find they simply cannot work out as hard on low carb and i believe this is a result of lack of glycogen in the muscles. i'm not sure what your short term and long term goals are. i would do exercise based on your energy levels, and once you are down to a healthier weight you can start incorporating carbs (CKD). or you can even start CKD now if hard exercise is immediately important to you.

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evinfOP•

I'm on roughly week 5 of C25K - so 5-10 minutes of running with 3-5 minutes of walking in between, depending on the "day" of the program.

Honestly, I don't know that I need to get down to a much lower weight. I lost 10 lbs on keto, but that was after having already lost about 75 lbs through more typical diet/exercise (started at 270-275, now in the low-to-mid 180s).

Should I consider "carbing up" immediately prior to workouts and seeing if I remain in keto (I use test strips)?

0
[deleted]•

Should I consider "carbing up" immediately prior to workouts and seeing if I remain in keto (I use test strips)?

yeah, definitely, especially if you aren't trying to lose any more weight. or you can just look to increase your carb intake in general if you don't want to worry about timing it. <100g of carbs a day is still 'low-carb', it should still produce weight loss (though much slower), and i'm inclined to believe it will be enough carbs to fuel you during runs. but if you are curious about CKD/TKD, googling it will give you tons of info.

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Noressa5'7 F - SW: 267 CW 161 GW 150•

It took me a few weeks to get back to where I felt decent after my weights on Keto. That said, now I definitely know when I've had a lot of carbs (day after cheat days) and where I am after a keto workout normally! The first few weeks of adjustment were the hardest, but now I can do 30-45 minutes of weights and 15 minutes HIIT and be fine by the time I get home.

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bongcrosbyPhoto Friday? More like Water Friday.•

Running for 10 minutes doesn't require a carb load. You're simply not pacing yourself well, your body isn't adjusted to keto, or a mixture of both.

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evinfOP•

I've been running on a treadmill at the same pace for months. The runs are not for 10 minutes total. They're in 10 minute increments. That's what C25K is about.

-1
[deleted]•

A food log would really help, just because we don't know exactly how many calories you're getting, or how many you're burning. Or even if you're eating carbs you don't know you're eating.

2
evinfOP•

And I understand that it would help. I'm not refuting that. I have multiple reasons why I don't do food logs though - one is a stressful job with long hours. Another is an obsession with trying to track and count everything. Having lost a substantial amount of weight without a log, I made the decision that it's just not the right decision for me.

I can see how there would be a ton of benefits to it though.

I will say I know and keep a rough count of carbs in my head and am staying under 20. I also know I am still in ketosis because I use test strips once every couple of days if not more often.

I eat no bread. I eat good amounts of eggs, beef and chicken. All of my veggies are greens - green beans, broccoli and tons of spinach. My lunches are generally salads, made at home from bagged romaine lettuce, cheese, turkey and dressing. I keep tomatoes and cucumbers to a minimum. I also tend to avoid carrots as they seem to be somewhat carb heavy.

For a snack, it's generally jerky or pork rinds. In a pinch, I'll also buy a little bag of almonds.

I understand people want to be very analytical, and I'm the one asking for advice, but I'm not asking for a doctor's opinion. I'm asking for advice from people who maybe were exercising before beginning a keto diet and continued to do so and what sort of difficulties they encountered.

-1
[deleted]•

Ok seriously: Have you ever used a meal tracker/calorie counter like MyFitnessPal or the Livestrong one? It's not some OCD activity; it literally takes 5 seconds to do. Why so defensive?

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evinfOP•

As I addressed above, when I answer the same question multiple times, I tend to not want to address it again. As far as using a tracking program, I don't have time to access the Internet 24/7, nor do I have a smartphone as I am not willing to pay that much for either the phone or the monthly data packages. That means I'd actually have to keep a paper log and enter in the data at a later time, meaning I'd basically have to keep some sort of container with me at all times to store either empty packages or wrappers or receipts for foods I ate.

That seems like an activity that'd take quite longer than 5 seconds.

Instead of constantly saying "WHY Y U NO LOG FUDS?" why not simply offer some other form of constructive advice?

-3
veritay•

I'm sorry but that was very much constructive criticism. How do we know if you need more protein if we don't know how much you eat?

Btw, it's not hard to remember '1 Big Mac, no bun' until you can get home and add it to your food log. Food logging is almost essential when starting keto- how do you know if you are hitting your ratios correctly?

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evinfOP•

It's the tone and wording that comes off as condescending. Even your response with "Btw, it's not hard..." is somewhat condescending. How do you know it's not hard? Maybe I smoked a ton of weed and have a bad memory. It's a presumption that since it is easy to you, it must be easy to anyone.

I'm not trying to be accusatory, at this point I'm simply trying to point out to others, especially in r/keto, how they can scare other people off by making it sound like it's the easiest thing in the world. It's a lifestyle change. It's like telling a crack addict "quitting crack? That's easy. Just don't do crack."

My single and initial experience with the subreddit as a whole in this thread/topic is that it isn't very supportive, and I guess I had hoped or expected it to be.

As for my ratios - as I said I do use test strips to make sure I am in ketosis. Aside from that I suppose I have no way to confirm if it's at 90/5/5. I'd think being in ketosis is more important than if the ratio sticks at 90/5/5 or changes to say, 80/15/5.

So let me ask a question - what is more important - being in ketosis, or maintaining a precise ratio?

-4
veritay•

You are coming off like a complete asshole. Posters have made completely genuine and helpful suggestions. I have never been part of a more welcoming community- pretty much everyone here would bend over backwards to give you help/advice/support. I've been part of a few low carb communities in my time (been under 20g carbs for almost 2 years), this one outshines every other.

I apologise if I came across as condescending, I never meant for that. I'm just annoyed that you have every excuse under the sun not to track your food, when it's one of the simplest things to do and could actually HELP people give you advice on what to do.

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epakaStick to savory.•

The ratio was created because it's optimal for fat loss. If your fat and carb intakes are both low, your body starts burning protein and muscle, which makes it much more difficult to work out for extended periods of time as protein doesn't break down into ketones. It breaks down into small quantities of glucose, which is counterproductive. THIS is why we like to know what you're eating on a daily basis; so that we can tell you whether or not you should inject more fat into your diet so that your body has more energy to do the things you want to do. No one's attacking your ideas on food logs.

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omg-onoz•

I'm no expert but i would try adding some healthy low glycemic carbs befor your workout for a week and see if it changes anything.

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nothingtoseehere28made of awesome•

My guess is you're not fully keto adapted yet.

Reading through your comments, it looks like you'r enot sold on keto. If something else worked for you, then great, maybe keto isn't your thing.

Another thing to realize, the closer you get to your goal weight, the slower the weight comes off and the more closely you need to watch how uch you're eating. You've lost 10lbs in a month, I don't think many people would be complaining about that.

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QuantumentangledEvery day I'm Ket-to-ing na-na-na-na-NA-na-na•

I do an intense cardio routine 6 days a week at 4:30am and was hitting the same wall. I now take a 5 hour energy at the beginning of the workout and I'm able to push through. 2 Tablespoons of heavy cream work as well for me.

It took me a month for my body to adjust to the lack of carbs. Good luck. (Just FYI, if you have a Costco near you, the kirkland brand of 5 hour energy is a case of 48 and costs 35.99 (.75 each) It's the only thing I have found that is pretty consistent.

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goggeCONSISTENT COMMENTER•

Try to eat some Spinach and/or some Avocados (calcium/magnesium/potassium), and swap out your regular salt for mineral salts (contains magnesium/potassium). Both mild magnesium and potassium deficiencies have fatigue and muscle weakness as symptoms.

The diuretic (dehydrating) nature of ketosis causes an excretion of three of the body’s primary electrolytes: sodium, potassium, and magnesium (31,40). These three minerals are involved in many processes in the body, one of which is the regulation of muscle contraction, including the heart. Some studies show a net loss of calcium while others do not (31).

"The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald, page 79.

It takes a few weeks to adapt to the diet, I posted this in another thread (there's some details in the follow-up posts also):

It can take up to three weeks for your muscle to adapt and stop using ketones when glucose is sparse, it might be that if you do intense exercise the energy need of the muscle will surpass the amount of ketones being created, and I'm guessing you could get the same "bonk" (but I can't really verify that):

As described previously, muscles will derive up to 50% of their energy requirements from ketones during the first few days of ketosis. However this drops rapidly and by the third week of ketosis, muscles derive less only 4-6% of their energy from ketone bodies (22).

"The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald, page 46/47.

After that period your performance is limited by the available fatty acids and not ketones (ketones are made from fatty acids, mostly, by your liver). The definite time it takes to adapt might vary, but a study over six weeks show that people can still increase their endurance on Keto during that time frame:

To study the capacity for moderate endurance exercise and change in metabolic fuel utilization during adaptation to a ketogenic diet

...

The duration of treadmill exercise to subjective exhaustion was 80% of base line after 1 wk of the PSF, but increased to 155% after 6 wk.

Phinney SD, et al. "Capacity for Moderate Exercise in Obese Subjects after Adaptation to a Hypocaloric, Ketogenic Diet" J Clin Invest. 1980 November; 66(5): 1152–1161.

Looking at another keto endurance study in well-trained cyclists shows an increase at the fourth week of keto (EBD = eucaloric balanced diet, EKD = eucaloric ketogenic diet, EKD-4 = week four of keto):

The mean ergometer endurance time for continuous exercise to exhaustion (ENDUR) at 62%-64% of VO2max was 147 minutes at EBD-1 and 151 minutes at EKD-4.

and..

Neither clinical nor biochemical evidence of hypoglycemia was observed during ENDUR at EKD-4.

..

This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level.

Phinney SD, et al. "The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation". Metabolism. 1983 Aug;32(8):769-76.

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