[3000] Courage, Draft 2, part 3 NSFW
Hi all, Back with the third and last part of this story. The feedback I've gotten here for this body of work has been amazing. Seriously, there are so many talented people here and I am very grateful to have found this sub.
All feedback is good feedback. I am open to anything. Harsh critiques don't bother me either. Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings. Rip it to pieces. It helps me learn and improve. Thanks in advance.
I do want to give a trigger warning for sexual assault. If that kind of thing bothers you, you might want to skip this one.
Story: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1itwjBvURyA4sj-MddNMPjKx9HPEG4ydFfT4GuC568oM/edit?usp=sharing
Critiques: https://old.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/rci6ig/1794_folklore/ho9f345/
The next two crits are from a couple of weeks ago. I critiqued about 3400 words for a 2084 word submission. So I am cashing in those remaining 1400 words here, with Mod approval of course.
https://old.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/qyhmn9/1742_hello_michelle/hljnt7v/ https://old.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/qyfc6f/1770_the_future_of_paedophilia/hlgcapu/
Posted Dec 12, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC
(1/2)
Hello! I hope I'm still in time with this critique to provide you some feedback before you change the project. Since you mentioned in all your posts that you can take harsh critiques, I’ll cut the fluff. I would like to state upfront that although I have lots of things to say, I think you can be proud that you put a story this long on paper and convince a random guy on the internet to read it all. It certainly wasn’t as terrible of an experience as this critique might make it seem to be. ;)
I hadn't read parts 1 and 2 before, so your summary in the comments helped. However, if you're posting multiple parts (especially 3 or more), I would recommend just adding a summary to your post. It can serve as a recap for people who have read the previous parts, as well as make it more inviting for people to just drop by and critique the prose for example.
Anyhow, I read part 3 and I felt a mixture of confusion and disappointment. I then decided to read parts 1 and 2 and re-read part 3, to see if that would change anything. And yes, it did make the reading experience of part 3 better, but it also made some issues more obvious. Since I read all parts I will pretend to critique the story as a whole, and not just focus on part 3. I will therefore not really go into sentence-level edits.
General
Alright, I’m not going to lie. Your post stood out to me because it was marked NSFW. I think you did well to do so, and I especially like that you explained why it’s NSFW. This is also a minor issue I have though. It’s marked NSFW for sexual assault. It’s not. It’s rape. I know this is a very ‘heavy’ thing to say in your post and it will turn many readers away. I understand why you would thus go for ‘sexual assault’, but I don’t think it’s quite fair in my opinion. Food for thought.
There is a lot of mentioning of brand names (alcohol), a car name, specific ‘slang’ for clothing etc. This completely pulled me out of the immersion. At times I felt detached from the story because of it. I’m not a car guy, nor do I drink, so seeing the specific brand of car and brand of drink just made me go ‘huh what’s that supposed to be?’. I also don’t think it matters. Saying ‘on the table lay a bottle of Bud’ only confuses me more than ‘on the table lay a bottle of beer’. I feel like it’s a recurring issue that you overdescribe some things and underdescribe others. Ironically, this is something I struggle with as well. I’ll get back to this later.
In part 3 you use *** 5 times (in 5 pages!) That’s a lot! At one point there are no more than 65 words between ***’s. I think you can cut all of them. You don’t need ***’s for skipping the time he’s in the shower. Personally I’d only use ***’s if you cut to Jeremy doing something a month later or so.
Characters
I felt overwhelmed with names and characters. Especially in part one. So much so, that I had to keep a list of who’s who. In part one (1000 words), 9 names introduced. That is one per 115 words! (At least half of those are redundant). Here’s the list I kept, with my impressions of them: Cody – kid in karate class; Ashley – kid in karate class; Flynn – dark hair, kid in karate class who wants to touch the spider; charley – the spider; Dave – karate master, warm and capable; Jeremy – friend of Dave (and his bodyguard); Paul – friend of Dave, uses drugs, funny; Tamara – Not liked by Jeremy, Pauls girlfriend; Roxanne – friend of Paul; annoying cackle.
See what I mean? Chances are you just skipped this because the summary alone is overwhelming. Also, if you read about what I picked up on them, it’s not really the most essential of information. Here is what I picked up about the characters and how I felt about them:
> Karate kids
Cut these names. It was very overwhelming to me, because naming these kids makes them seem important. My brain tried to pick up all information on them, which wasn’t necessary at all, since they only serve to set up the theme/main issue for later.
> Dave
Dave is described here as warm and capable. Now, if Jeremy sees him as his mentor, I understand why. However, in part two and three, he seems a lot more like some drug addict than a disciplined karate master to look up to. I understand that he pretends in class, but the contrast seems a bit too big for me. Either make him more of an asshole/out of control in class or make him less likable out of class. “What would Dave have done to get the point across if all of them had been like Flynn? He would have found a way. He always did.” I found this a beautiful way of showing the Jeremy looks up to Dave.
> Jeremy
Protagonist (although this only really became clear to me halfway through part 1) and friend of Dave. Works as his bodyguard (why can’t a karate master defend himself? Jeremy doesn’t seem to carry a gun, while Dave does. In part 2 (and/or 3) he gets a bit of backstory. I liked this, but it felt a bit shoehorned in. (The narration is supposed to be Jeremy, so it’s a bit weird that he askes himself about his parents.)
> Paul
Friend of Dave. Deals drugs. The line “I told her what an asshole you are,” was quite funny to me. I don’t think it would do harm if you added more of these lines.
> Tamara
Not liked by Jeremy. Pauls girlfriend, apparently. Mentioned in part 1 and 2, but only appears in part 3. She is, in my opinion, completely redundant. She can be cut out of the story and nothing would change. Switch the rape around to Jeremy having a fight with Paul and there you go. I am also absolutely disgusted by the description of her ‘nasal voice’, I guess that serves it purpose well, haha.
> Roxanne
Friend of Paul. Later a whore. Her conversation with Jeremy is a bit weird. I’ll get back to this. I liked how your descriptions made her seem very trashy (make-up, long nails, etc.)
> Josiah, Dakotah, and TaylorThese are only mentioned in part 3 and serve no purpose. Cut.
Arcs
Since I just went over all the characters, I’ll keep this short. First I’d like to say that I like Jeremy’s arc, although it would benefit from a stronger conclusion.
Secondly, I’m quite confused by Dave’s arc. It’s all over the place. Sometimes he’s a mentor, sometimes he’s more like Paul. Try balancing this out. In part one he’s shown as kind and friendly to the kids. At the drug deal, Jeremy remarks the following: “It amazed him how much someone’s personality could change when shown a little flattery.” This confused me a lot. How did he change? Why did he change because of it? He seemed nice earlier?
Plot
Here’s a small advantage that I read part 3 first. I think you did a good job setting up the whole courage thing. I also liked that you made David’s ‘no courage without fear’ mantra come back in part 3. The ending felt a bit weak to me, however. I think this is mainly because the story is about Jeremy, but he didn’t have a ‘final moment’. The closest is the moment where he tells David it’s him or Paul, but the story goes on after that. It somewhat has a happy ending, but I feel like the ending would be stronger if Jeremy made the decision that he had enough of his shit and just left Dave. He’s his mentor, but doesn’t seem like a great influence to me.
Perhaps you could end on an even stronger note. Dave (or Paul) threatening Jeremy to stay (with a loaded gun.) Jeremy leaves anyway and says “there is no courage without fear”.
I liked how you showed progression in his arc by him rejecting Roxanne.
As I said before, I think Tamara can be completely left out. Her raping Jeremy does not progress his arc or the plot. It only serves to ‘have a reason’ to kick Paul and Tamara out.
(2/2)
Pacing
Another reason the ending didn’t work for me is because there’s a lot of redundant stuff just before it. Him thinking about the tv and counting the ceiling tiles can all be cut. The same thing happened at the end of part 2. You had created quite a nice moment, which would make for an excellent point to cut the story in half. It was spoiled by 2 more paragraphs. I think it should’ve ended at “I love you too”.Cutting redundant stuff is the thing that would improve your story the most. I think you might be able to get it from 6k to 4-4,5k easily. Cut Tamara, cut the whore outside, cut (part of) the karate class, cut names, cut redundant descriptions, cut, cut, cut.The story you’re going for is a short story. That means you only have a limited word count. You need to be absolutely ruthless when it comes to cutting redundant stuff. Roxanne description: good – shows Jeremy is repulsed by her. Ceiling tiles description: not good – no purpose. I remember at one point there is a paragraph about how nothing happened. I know it hurts, but cutting redundancy will greatly improve the pacing, plot and descriptions.
Descriptions
As mentioned before, I think you underdescribe some things, while overdescribing others. I won’t spend too much time on this, but try balancing it out. Give all descriptions meaning, but do try to describe more things. You did an excellent job at this when describing Roxanne. Her distorted face and stuff make it clear that Jeremy is repulsed by her.I do think the descriptions in part 3 were better than those in part 1 and 2.Sometimes you rely on telling a bit too much. This can be Jeremy summarising a conversation, but also telling about character history/traits. If it’s too long to show, it might be redundant.Some descriptions fell flat on me. Especially the analogies. “The amber liquid glided down his throat” is probably the worst sentence in the story. I see what you tried to do, but to add descriptions you should describe things that matter, not unnecessarily overcomplicate the description of things that don’t. This specific sentence is more of an exception than the rule, but it could come straight out of r/writingcirclejerk.Telling isn’t always bad though, and is often more efficient than showing, when used correctly. “Being third in line with some bleach blond whore wasn’t exactly how he pictured losing his virginity.” Is a great example of you subtly telling something that will come into play later. The reason this works is because it does two things: telling something and showing Jeremy’s feelings about what’s about to happen. Good job.
Dialogue
I felt like there was some good dialogue and some that was a little… mechanical? I liked the discussion between Paul and Dave about the coke a lot. It showed character and it flowed well. There was action and tension. A textbook example of good conflict.Sometimes a conversation feels fake. An example is the one between Roxanne and Jeremy. They are talking about how he’s a virgin and she suddenly goes “Jesus, you really are young. What are you 17?” Ichuckled a bit here, because in my head it sounded a bit like Skyrim dialogue. I know stuff like this can happen in real conversations, but on paper it’s unrealistic. Remember that dialogue has the goal to imitate a real conversation, but it’s not the same.Also, re-check the dialogue tags. On a few occasions it’s unclear who says what (only happens once or twice). Laughed, chuckled, cackled, sighed, etc. are NOT dialogue tags. You can say something, but you can’t laugh something. You can whisper something, but you can’t cackle something. See what I mean? Another example: “a slurred female voice said.” The lady said it. Not the voice.At some points I felt that the dialogue was a bit repetitive/redundant. Paul tells Jeremy he get’s his ass whooped if he tells Tamara. Jeremy agrees, after which Paul says “Like I said, you better not.” Another example is “Wow, she’s a wild one,” Dave said. “You’ll see for yourself here in a little bit.” This feels weird, because the second part is not something someone would say in real life. ““Wow, she’s a wild one,” said Dave, wiping the sweat off his forehead.” will suffice.
Tension
You did an amazing job at building tension. Even though I knew he would survive, I feared for Jeremy’s life at the roulette game. You even managed to make me think ‘wait what’ when everything went black.My compliments.I also really liked how you upped the tension at the roulette game by them threatening to put in a second bullet if he doesn’t play.
Random thoughts
Who is Rosie and what is a Gemini? It might be a translation thing (am not a native speaker) but I was only able to find the zodiac sign. I’m so confused haha.Why is Jeremy not angry about the rape? He lets Dave know later, but doesn’t do anything when Tamara taunts him with it in the morning. “What would she say if she knew he had been a virgin?” Really? That’s the first thing he thinks about? I would be angry, furious even. That doesn’t mean he has to attack her or something, but he can start an argument about consent, slam a door, anything!Another one of these is when Paul takes the revolver to play roulette. Jeremy balls his hands into fists (which sounds weird) and thinks about who’s clean up the mess. I’m not sure that’s the thing someone like Jeremy would worry about at that moment.Roxanne is at one point described to study Jeremy as: “She moved them over him like an artist deciding which part of the model to draw first.” Now, there’s nothing wrong with this description, but since she was earlier portrayed as trashy and repulsive, I’m having trouble picturing her as an elegant artist studying an object.I noticed you have double spaces after every sentence. Is there a reason to this?Why does Jeremy feel weird seeing Dave with a woman? He didn’t feel weird when he did drugs.The scene where Jeremy gives a prostitute 20$ feels weird and redundant. It doesn’t really have a purpose. Also, why is she disappointed? I would think she’d just be like ‘eh free money’I was very confused after the roulette scene. Later it became clear Dave did it to show Jeremy fear so he’d develop his courage, but it didn’t seem like something a mentor would do. Perhaps foreshadowit a bit more?Some of Jeremy’s thoughts were unspecific and confusing. Some were a little cringy. Example: “Dave’s choice of words… first time. So what had happened between them… didn’t really count? It was one of those questions he had always been afraid to ask. But now he had his answer.” It feels a bit like the realisation of a YA character to me. Perhaps you can edit this a bit.
Final thoughts
Alright, I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings too much. The most important things you can do to lift this story to a higher level are cutting redundancy, make Dave consistent and make Jeremy more activein the ending.This critique got a bit out of hand, and although I ended up writing a critique about half as long as the entire story, it isn’t as bad as I make it seem to be. At no point did I feel bored or irritated by the character’s decisions. The prose lacked some descriptions, but I was never confused when scenes changed location or time.I think you did a good job of laying the foundations for a good plot, considering the great size of this story. I wish you the best of luck editing this one and writing the next one. Keep writing!
-Arowulf
It's practically impossible to hurt my feelings when critiquing my writing. Even if you said, "Hey your story sucks and you're a talentless hack of a writer." I would just take it as an opinion you're entitled to. You took the time to read my work and give your opinion, for free. If you went line by line telling me all the reasons this story sucks, I wouldn't be even the slightest bit upset, hurt or pissed. Because in the end it's going to help me get better. I graduated from art school. Art school professors are notoriously brutal when critiquing students. Their reason for this is, if you can't handle the criticism of a professor, then you will never be able to handle the criticism of the real world.
The worst feedback is when someone reads my stuff and just says, "I liked it." This is why I rarely let friends read my work anymore.
I can't really say what was going through my head when I used the term sexual assault. I am a sexual assault survivor. So, I am not unfamiliar with the difference. What happens in this story is definitely rape. When I posted the first draft I remember one person was like, "Well I don't understand why he would go to the cops. Nothing illegal happened." Or something like that. I just remember thinking, Since when is it legal to rape someone? Female on male doesn't make it any different.
I had to laugh a little about your mention of brand names since when I posted part two there was so much discussion in the comments about the use of the term Colt when describing the gun.
Jeremy isn't actually Dave's bodyguard. That comment was sarcastic. These two buff ex-military dudes are there, one is a martial arts master... and they have this skinny teenager with them. It was Dave trying to be funny. I realize there isn't much description here of what they look like. But this is also not the first story in the series. They are described in previous stories. I don't expect you to know that by osmosis though.
I'm glad my descriptions of Tamera were disgusting. She IS disgusting. I won't cut her out, though. The rape scene stays. It's not because I'm a sadist who likes to torture my characters. It just explains a lot later on down the line when Jeremy is an adult and doing some really fucked up things. It's also a good contrast after the scene with Roxanne. he turns Roxanne down because he's not ready to lose his virginity. But then it's taken from him anyway. It's like no matter what happens, he doesn't feel like he has any choice in it.
Dave being all over the place is kind of intentional. He's basically a psychopath. He can be whatever he needs to be when he needs to be it. In class he's the kind, warm teacher. With Roxanne he's suave and flirtatious. With Paul he's the brother figure. But he's basically raising Jeremy, and so Jeremy sees all these sides to him, even the raging psycho, and never knows quite what to expect.
The ending here isn't the ending to the whole series. Otherwise, Jeremy leaving while at gunpoint, etc would be awesome. But then the whole rest of the series wouldn't happen.
I agree, there is a lot here that can be cut. I am a minimalist. I like saying what I need to say in as few words as possible.
Rosie is the drunk girl outside who offered to give Jeremy a BJ for cab fare. The Gemini is the name of the bar across the street. I'm actually glad you asked about that. No one else has caught it. Tamera gave him Special K, which is really strong. So when the rape is happening he's so out of it he doesn't even know who's doing it. He just remembers the girl outside and thinks it's her. She was a big girl. Tamera is a big girl. It's just showing how out of it he is because of the drugs.
He is angry about the rape. He just keeps it inside. The next morning when she is taunting him he's still just really confused.
I would say Jeremy feels weird seeing Dace with a woman because it's something that he hasn't seen before. I know it isn't glaringly obvious in this story, but the two of them are sexually involved with each other. Even at the end... It's left open to interpretation. Like is Dave crawling into bed with him to comfort him, or is he crawling into bed to fuck him?
Rosie isn't actually a prostitute. She's a drunk who is literally just trying to get cab fare. He gives her the $20 and doesn't accept her payment because he's compassionate and just being nice.
I tried to answer all the questions you asked. And this was actually a really good exercise for me, because if all these things aren't evident to the reader, it's up to me to make them evident.
Thank you so much for your time and effort. This has given me a lot to think about. There is a story I posted recently called Driving Graveyard that is also a part of this series but takes place a lot later on the timeline, if you are curious and feel like checking it out. Seriously, thank you.
Cheers.