The Hidden Tragedy of Illya – An Analysis (I)

HF Spoiler

What’s the deal with Illya? Why does she keep randomly appearing in the shopping district? What are her true feelings about Kiritsugu? Does she really want to kill Shirou? And most importantly, why is she so cute? At least some of these questions will be answered today!

previous writing

In both routes, Shirou meets Illya at the shopping district (or the park near it), several times in the earlier parts of the story. The first scene in the sequence actually has the same name in both routes: The Daughter of Winter – Illya (I). This initial relationship leads to Illya living at Shirou’s house in the latter half of both of those routes, after Berserker is defeated.

On the other hand, in UBW these meetings never happen, and Illya never ends up living at Shirou’s house because . . . you know. Fuck Gilgamesh.

Given my general obsession with comparing things, we’re going to get into the exact details of the similarities and differences between these scenes, but first I want to take a look at their overall placement in the story. The first Illya scene in Fate takes place on Day 7, when Shirou goes out to buy supplies because Saber hungry.

The first Illya scene in HF, on the other hand, takes place on Day 5, due to Shirou going out to buy supplies in preparation for Sakura staying over at his house.

Shirou doesn’t go out to buy food on day 5 in Fate because Rin is the one cooking that night, and she specifically told him to go straight home after school. This doesn’t happen in HF since he doesn’t initially ally with Rin.

In UBW, he doesn’t go buy food on day 5 because he gets into a fight with Rin that afternoon after school, followed by getting into a fight with Rider, and then going to Rin’s place. He also doesn’t go buy food on day 7 because they’re in the middle of dealing with Shinji, something that happens at different time depending on the route.

All this to show that even the minor changes in plot between routes have some thought put into them and seem to flow naturally from Shirou’s initial decisions.

. . . Except, there’s one thing I realised as I was writing this. That just explains Shirou’s decisions. How come Illya appears on different days depending on the route? The first encounter with her goes the same way in both Fate and HF, so there shouldn’t be a reason for her actions to change.

Options

  • Illya is using magic to observe/track Shirou and changes her plans based on whether he goes or not.

It might be initially appealing, but this doesn’t make sense. It takes hours to get from the Einzbern castle to the shopping district. The time lag would prevent Illya from being able to effectively respond to Shirou’s decisions, which aren’t planned that far in advance.

  • Nasu is lazy and just decided that it would work like that.

Nothing much to say here. It’s obviously possible, but leaving this as the conclusion feels lazy on my part, as well.

  • Illya goes to the shopping district and waits for Shirou every day.

Well, not necessarily every day, but at least 5 and 7, probably 6, maybe even 4, and potentially more if she still hasn’t met Shirou by that point as in UBW. I think this is the most reasonable conclusion for a few reasons.

Firstly, even if the days of the meetings didn’t vary by route, it would still be a coincidence for Illya to show up just on the day that Shirou happened to go shopping. The only realistic way for Illya to meet Shirou (and yes, she is explicitly going to the shopping district with the intent of trying to meet Shirou) is if she just repeatedly wanders around places that he might go to. I mean, she doesn’t know where his house is, right?

Illya is also seen waiting for Shirou without any expectation of him being there in both Fate and HF. The second meeting in Fate is by chance, with Illya waiting in the park in case he shows up. The same occurs in HF, with Illya not thinking Shirou would show up. What’s to say she isn’t doing the same on other days?

And besides, Illya has the motivation to go into Fuyuki besides just meeting Shirou, as she enjoys sneaking away from the maids and going outside. What else does she even have to do during the daytime?

Like, I initially thought this line where Illya mentions how long she’s been waiting to talk to Shirou is in reference to the years in between being told he exists and actually meeting him, but now I’m pretty sure it’s just in reference to her waiting for hours in the shopping district.

But hey, that’s just a theory. A game theory!

Seriously, though, after thinking about it a bit I don’t really know if I can call it a theory. Illya spending a lot of time alone isn’t exactly a hidden feature of the text. It’s just that these scenes are crafted to give one the impression that the world rotates around Shirou. An important character shows up to talk with him the moment he has some free time, and his later choices over whether or not to go to the park feels as though you, the player, are manifesting Illya into existence with the push of a button.

All of that means you rarely think about what this involves, in practice, and it’s a sobering realisation: Illya shows up, whether you are there or not.

First Meeting

The flow of their initial meeting is very similar, with Illya and Shirou learning each other’s names, Shirou realising that Illya just wants to talk to him, and then going to the park.

The primary difference, however, is that in the Fate version, Shirou is coerced into going along with her because he thinks she’ll attack if he doesn’t. In Heaven’s Feel, Illya lets Shirou make the decision, and he talks with her because he wants to.

This difference arises because in Fate, Shirou is rougher with pushing Illya off him, leading to her being much scarier in response. And this of course all ultimately stems from the fact that Shirou shows more consideration to Illya in Heaven’s Feel, being much less concerned with the fact that she’s an enemy Master.

Look at the leadup to Shirou shoving Illya in Fate. He emphasises that they’ve already fought, and notes how casually she speaks of violence towards others. After shoving her away, he immediately wonders why he did it. It was clearly unjustified – Illya wasn’t attacking him, and at least physically he’s far stronger than her, so there’s no need to use that much force.

But at the same time, it’s pretty obvious why he does, right? She was directly responsible for getting him basically chopped in half, what, three days ago? And here she is coming into a place that he thought would be safe, reminding him, however unintentionally, that it is not, forcing him to suddenly be concerned not only for himself but all the people in the shopping district, violating his personal space, and then talking like she doesn’t give a shit about any of it.

We talk about Shirou’s trauma from the fire a lot, but I think it’s worth recognising that his introduction to the Holy Grail War, where he gets fatally wounded like three times in the first day, is plenty trauma-inducing itself. It’s not uncommon for the protagonist to be surprisingly calm about the terrifying new world they’re thrust into, but here I think Nasu is intentionally deconstructing the trope. Shirou is surprisingly calm, but it’s because he’s already accustomed to death as a result of the fire. The fact that he still gets jumpy and stressed on occasion like this is just a testament to Nasu being subtle about it.

In any case, Heaven’s Feel takes a different route, with Shirou and Illya’s initial interactions being less fraught. This is of course the main and most obvious difference between their interactions in the two routes in general, as Shirou and Illya get into an argument on their second meeting in Fate, culminating with Illya’s kidnapping of Shirou, while in HF they grow closer by the end of things.

But there are some interesting kinks to this. For one thing, their first conversation in Fate still manages to be a really good scene, despite the ‘strangely tense atmosphere’ which isn’t present in the HF counterpart. Illya snuggling close to Shirou and eating the dora-yaki is cute, Illya talking about how she was never allowed outside the castle is sad, and the two of them sharing what they received from their parents just makes me really happy.

However, in HF, a lot of the conversation is skipped over, and instead the main content of the scene is Shirou and Illya getting angry at each other.

So, it turns out that just because Shirou feels more sympathetic towards Illya in this route, it doesn’t mean he’s forgotten the whole ‘getting chopped in half’ thing.

However, this outburst coming later in the interaction changes something interesting about how Illya acts. The thing that prompted it was Illya asking Shirou whether he liked her, which is the same question that Illya asks after Shirou shoves her in Fate. However, the delivery is very different.

Heaven’s Feel: unprompted, embarrassed, clearly cares a lot about the answer.

Fate: plausibly in response to Shirou doing something that indicates he might not like her, said in a direct and threatening tone, doesn’t even seem to expect an answer.

Now, if you remember my last Illya post, you’ll know I concluded this persona of Illya is a defense mechanism against painful situations. With the addition of the information from Heaven’s Feel, it becomes clear that whether or not Shirou likes her is actually something she really wanted to know, but when he hurt her feelings by pushing her, she retreated emotionally and was unable to ask in a genuine way as she does in Heaven’s Feel, even when they started getting along better later in the conversation.

Types of Smiles

The other thing you’ll remember is that this shift in persona is indicated through Illya’s facial expressions. Well, I’m pleased to announce that in HF we unlock new types of Illya faces! By which I mean that these expressions are primarily used in HF. If anyone has some examples of them being used earlier, please let me know, by the way.

Firstly, there are some variants of the ‘default face’. On its own that’s interesting. The default face, in Illya’s case, is used to show an unusual lack of emotion on her part (as opposed to other characters’ default faces, which tend to just be neutral). However, now we have some happy versions, so perhaps these are supposed to be viewed as more natural expressions of emotion for Illya.

Notice how it replaces the smile that was used when she first sees Shirou in Fate. It communicates a more reserved fondness than her usual smile, but at the same time there’s a greater sense of familiarity that makes it really stand out in certain contexts. For example, the one time I know of it being used in the Fate route.

It’s like a hint that there’s more going on with her than we haven’t learnt about yet – that is, until it’s immediately dismissed as a joke. In the context of that scene it is used as a joke, with all the characters surprised that Illya would chill out and display an appropriate amount of politeness to Shirou now that he’s welcomed her into his house, only for her to immediately tackle him. However, the idea that Illya would conceal her true feelings by acting like a kid is not exactly implausible, as we’ll see in a bit.

We also get some new Illya expressions that look directly forward, to go with the threatening ones that we’re already familiar with. I feel comfortable grouping them all together, because while the emotions portrayed are quite disparate, the directness of them all contributes to making them feel more deliberate than Illya’s other expressions. Here, Illya deliberately tries to scare the shit out of Shirou. Here, though, the smile is used to try and cheer Shirou up. This sad-looking one, on the other hand, is used when Illya is making an effort to communicate something emotional.

Taken altogether, I think these new expressions all contribute to making Illya feel more mature, especially when she acts more like an older sister to Shirou.

Shopping

With that in mind, I think it’s time to look at some of the HF-specific Illya scenes – in particular, the times when Shirou takes Illya shopping. And yes, that’s ‘times’ plural, Die Lorelei isn’t the only Illya scene in the entire VN. I dunno, I’m just assuming that a lot of people will have missed the first time, since Nasu in his infinite wisdom gated it behind a multiple-choice question. But we’ll start with Lorelei.

It begins with a lot of focus on Illya running around and enjoying herself. Then we get to the part where they walk home. Illya starts singing, and while Shirou initially assumes she’s happy, he then speculates the actual reason she makes a habit of singing while walking home is to distract herself from her loneliness. Having made that connection, he then extrapolates that the only reason Illya is able to have fun like this is because she’s suppressing her emotions. Note that the thing Illya is avoiding discussion of is basically how screwed she and Shirou are at this point, between her being a homunculus and Shirou having to deal with Archer’s arm.

But the underlying behaviour here, of disguising her true feelings by acting happy, is one that’s core to Illya as a character, as the earlier scene of Shirou and Illya going shopping makes clearer.

This one is Illya and Shirou’s third meeting, back when we’re still in the paradigm of Shirou randomly encountering her at the park. Except Shirou totally misses her, she gets mad, and to make it up to her, Shirou has to . . . choose one of two options! (The third is to just not, which is -1 Illya affection point, I guess. Don’t choose that one.)

This is the option where Shirou decides to let Illya make him do whatever she wants, and she chooses the surprisingly trivial option of going shopping with him. She asks for an ‘everyday event’. I think this phrasing is important, because it’s ‘everyday’ for Shirou, but not for Illya. She asks to do something normal that you might do with a family member, because she hasn’t had anyone that she could do it with for the past 10 years.

So, she acts happy and Shirou, again, initially thinks this is normal. It’s normal for her to be having a good time. But it’s not. This is a special, out of the ordinary event for Illya. She’s trying her best to make the most of it, and not make Shirou feel bad about it. Because, in the end, she accepts that she can’t have this permanently.

She ‘yearns for ordinary life’ more than Shirou, but ‘casts away her wishes far more readily’. Here, it’s accepting that she and Shirou are enemy Masters. In Lorelei, it’s that they can’t both survive. In both, Illya sees the possibility of a life she could have and chooses to give up on it to make things easier for the people around her.

I started with the theory that at the beginning of the story, Illya waits for hours every day in order to eventually see Shirou.

I think the saddest part is that Illya just acts like it’s normal. Part of the reason why we might not consider whether she’s there on other days is because she doesn’t mention it. She has a fun time meeting Shirou and doesn’t really complain about how long it took or how cold she was. To some extent that makes sense – just based on info from the Fate route, we can see that Illya was treated poorly by the Einzberns and doesn’t really know what a normal life is like.

But in Heaven’s Feel we see Illya understanding what she’s missing out on and choosing to let it go anyway. She says the most heartbreaking things with a smile because she doesn’t want Shirou to be concerned.

That’s the hidden tragedy of Illya – why would we think her smiling face is only an attempt to conceal her true emotions in one or two scenes? All the other times that Shirou comments on how cute and innocent she is can’t really be considered more accurate than this just because he hasn’t made the followup realisation yet.

I don’t mean to say that Illya is secretly depressed in every scene – she’s clearly having a good time after the end of the Fate route, for example. It’s just that now we have to read that in the context of her knowing that she’s going to die soon and simply not telling anyone because she thinks it will make things worse.

And I think I’m going to stop there before I start crying.

Okay, so I ended up not mentioning Kiritsugu at all. Well, this is marked part (I) for a reason. I might hold off on (II) until I get up to Illya’s final scene, though. Or maybe that’s (III). In any case, the subject of the next post is either More Illya or Nine Lives Blade Works, depending on how I feel when I finish reading Heaven’s Feel.

Posted May 20, 2022, 10:41 AM UTC · edited

5029
remirrorSakura supremacy is my ideology•

In terms of happy endings, Illya is more like a Servant (e.g. Saber, Archer) than she is like the other main human characters (Shirou, Rin, Sakura): there's not really a chance for a full happy ending for her, but she can still choose how to use her last remaining time, and depending on the route, she can die in pain or with a smile on her face.

She ‘yearns for ordinary life’ more than Shirou, but ‘casts away her wishes far more readily’.

This sounds like something Kirei would say about Kiritsugu. Except instead of being sad, it'd just piss him off.

15
ShockAndAwen•

This sounds like something Kirei would say about Kiritsugu. Except instead of being sad, it'd just piss him off

Is kinda what he thought when Irisviel told him the truth, but the reasons behind such behavior are almost the opposite, Kirei could relate to Illya if he wanted too, after all her too is a parallel to Shirou, sadly he never looks beyond the surface with her wich is interesting because he is always looking to compare himself to others and I'm sure he knows she is Kiritsugu's daughter

1
typellOPchronic illyaposter•

Kirei could relate to Illya if he wanted too, after all her too is a parallel to Shirou

and on this note why does he never interact with Archer! god that conversation would be fascinating

sadly he never looks beyond the surface with her wich is interesting

more obsessed with her function as grail i think

5
4chan_refugee297•

and on this note why does he never interact with Archer!

Nasu hadn't realized the untapped potential in the fujo market yet

Jokes aside though, I don't think there is all that much to do with Archer and Kirei, if I'm being honest. I'm sure there's an academic term for it, but I often like to talk about something I call "character compability." What I mean by this is that certain characters are more suited to each other than others in the extent to which that the interactions between two (or more) characters end up revealing about each character's inner world and the complexities of their psyche. Usually, two characters are compatible with each other because they were quite literally written to be that way, which is why you can't just take two random characters and mash them together like a kid with action figures because their interactions won't end up revealing anything deeper about characters beyond producing some reactions that make you go "Oh wow that's kinda cool" and little else.

For instance, Saber and Rin are both very cool characters. Do their interactions with each other really expose a lot of their depth though? Saber has a quite a lot in common in Shirou as they were written to be compatible, as does Rin, but that does not lead to some kind of syllogism that Saber and Rin necessarily have to be as compatible with each other as each is with Shirou. All their best interactions are ultimately when they form a trio with Shirou, as how Rin reacts to Shirou and Saber's relationship, and how Saber reacts to Rin and Shirou's own, reveals something about them. Remove Shirou from the equation however and there is little potential between the two of them left. Except sex scenes of course

Point being, I don't see what much you can do between those two characters other than have Archer say something unflattering of Kirei and also have Kirei take amusement in Archer's suffering. I sometimes think for instance how it's a wasted opportunity that Kirei's relationship with Rin is never properly explored -- after all I love both characters, it should be a dream come true! But FSN is already a complete experience. There really is no place in it for exploring that relationship (outside of some exploration of the Mind of Steel timeline -- but even then while seeing Kirei take pleasure in Rin and Shirou's suffering as they have to fight to the death would be as amusing to me as it would be to Kirei it really goes to show how without Shirou as a catalyst there's really not much to do with the two on their own) and ultimately Kirei was written to be Shirou's archnemesis while Rin to be his love interest. They weren't meant to interact, however superficially disappointing that may be. Kirei being Tokiomi's pupil as well as his killer and in turn Rin's mentor is but an incidental element of the plot.

That said, minor relatively inconsequential interactions between two otherwise distant and not all that compatible characters can still be fulfilling. There is actually this really fucking great moment between Illya and Rin toward the end of HF that is severely underrated. I just love it. I've actually thought about when I should bring it up because it shows there's some bit of depth to the relationship between the two, however little that may be. I guess the next Illya thread is as good as time as any...

Shirou is the catalyst for that one though so it just goes to prove my point on character compatibility.

10
typellOPchronic illyaposter•

I don't think there is all that much to do with Archer and Kirei, if I'm being honest.

So I do agree about your general point, that characters who don't interact in the story probably won't be that compatible since they aren't written to work together.

However, Archer and Kirei are just so loaded with things that could set each other off that I think a brief conversation could still be pretty fun, even if it ultimately doesn't add much to either of them.

Like, Kirei immediately being able to see through Archer's cynical act. Or Archer being able to actually give a good response to one of Kirei's questions. Or Kirei doing any sort of comparison and then Archer disagreeing with him. Or Archer doing the Kiritsugu thing like 'I never understood you and I don't really want to', then stabs him.

Agree about Kirei and Rin. It's kinda sad. I keep trying to imagine how a fight between the two would go and it's just . . . not that interesting.

There is actually this really fucking great moment between Illya and Rin toward the end of HF that is severely underrated.

Okay, writing down my guess now.

3
ShockAndAwen•

and on this note why does he never interact with Archer! god that conversation would be fascinating

There's some interactions with potential that just don't exist anywhere, only Nasu knows

more obsessed with her function as grail i think

Homunculus racism is kind of rampant in Fate

5
TheCreator120•

The closes thing we got is Nameless in Extra complaining about him still being a pain.

5
TF_FluffSwatchSella Is Underappreciated•

There's some interactions with potential that just don't exist anywhere, only Nasu knows

Throw Medea and Herc interactions on that pile. There isn't a ton you need to do with it, but I'm still curious what they think about each other.

2
farson135•

Nice analysis.

One of the interesting things about Illya is her quest to become more "human".

It's an interesting dynamic that would have probably been explored better in an Illya-centric route, followed by a Sakura-centric route than the truncated version that shows up in HF.

With Fate/UBW often featuring characters who seek to become less "human" the contrast with the theoretical Fate/Other Night would have been quite interesting.

9
typellOPchronic illyaposter•

an Illya-centric route, followed by a Sakura-centric route

Oh, so you think they would go in that order? I'd always assumed Sakura -> Illya

6
farson135•

I think the True Ending to HF is a "perfect" ending for FSN as a whole. For details, you can see my post here. Obviously I am open to improvements, but I think the baseline for what we got is good enough.

Beyond that, I believe Fate/Other Night should go something like; Medea-Illya->Medusa-Sakura

The way I see it, Medea&Illya, and Medusa&Sakura are the principle pairings of these four (though they all parallel each other to an extent).

My view of this theoretical game would involve two main branches featuring these two pairings. Medea's Route would obviously begin early thanks to the necessary divergence. Medea is killed on Day 5, and the "Punch Shinji" choice on Day 6 could be the scene to remove Sakura from the house (when she promises to do whatever he says), and begin the major divergences.

I see the two servants as acting as "introductions" to the two "human" characters. Medea for example would talk about how she was a "tool" by the gods and heroes to accomplish selfish tasks, while all she wanted to be with the person she loves. Also how this treatment warped her into doing horrific things and on. All of this would serve to build up not just Medea, but also Illya, who has suffered much the same way. However, her life isn't over. She can change. And again all of this building on the themes of growing up and all of that.

Medusa&Sakura would be similar. However, I imagine this main branch would go far darker. This is one of the advantages of splitting the stories. It would allow Nasu to dilute Sakura's torture to an extent. Rather than being so focused in a single storyline, the gist of what happened would be covered in Illya/Medea's Routes, with the major reveals (hinted at before obviously) split between Medusa's and Sakura's Routes. Also, they could build up characters like Zouken, True Assassin, and others (including the new side characters I asked for).

If we stick with these pairings, there is also an escalation of danger. Medea is a smart woman but she is pretty weak as a fighter. The only way for her to realistically help Shirou "win" the war is if she has enough room to maneuver. Medusa OTOH is a far more flexible servant, with a ton of abilities that give her a chance to win even under dire circumstances. When I say I expect Medusa/Sakura's Branch to get dark, I mean a total collapse of the standards we would have seen up to that point. Medea/Illya would help with the whiplash and that's about it.

5
4chan_refugee297•

I think this post is your best analysis post thus far by a fairly large margin. Perhaps I will change my mind on this assessment once the novelty of some of the insight wears off because I do admit that I haven't thought as deeply on Illya nor have I really read any all that in-depth analyses of her. Nonetheless, this is top notch, as it held my attention far more than the prior posts about Illya. I mean not that dislike her, far from it, but this is definitely the pro-Illya propaganda spiel par excellence. Great job.

In a bit of narcissism on my part, I will have to say that my uncredited role in the success of this piece of writing was the key to it impressing me so since you compared the early encounter between Shirou and Illya in Fate in HF respectively as I advised you to (I did do that, right?) and holy shit I cannot believe I never noticed Shirou meets Illya for the first (err, second) time on different days in the two routes. The scenes play out so similarly that I just assumed they were the same day! In my defence though those early days in Fate were quite boring and even annoying for me so I guess I wasn't paying attention to some of the minutia of what was actually happening to the same extent as I was in UBW and HF. It's really fascinating how something as simple as that reveals so, so much about a character and just how easily it can be missed.

Okay, so I ended up not mentioning Kiritsugu at all.

I wonder who this is addressed to...

In any case, the subject of the next post is either More Illya or Nine Lives Blade Works, depending on how I feel when I finish reading Heaven’s Feel.

You know... I'm starting to think that UBW was probably your favorite route (what a betrayal of Illya...) because your analyses of that one were the most organized and chronological of all the three routes.

Seriously though why aren't these called Analyzing FSN anymore

4
typellOPchronic illyaposter•

this is definitely the pro-Illya propaganda spiel par excellence

The greatest compliment I could ever hope to achieve

my uncredited role

You know the introduction was initially along the lines of 'okay lets do some nice chill inter-route Illya comparisons since u/4chan_refugee297 suggested it a while back' and then like halfway through I realised I had kinda forgotten that was what I was meant to be doing and was just writing about how sad HF Illya was

There's still stuff to compare beyond their first meeting, like how Illya uses magic to kidnap Shirou in Fate and then does basically the same thing but as a prank in HF.

The scenes play out so similarly that I just assumed they were the same day!

Yep, I did not even remotely notice until I started comparing the routes on a day-by-day basis.

In my defence though those early days in Fate were quite boring

Another thing the day-by-day analysis reveals is that literally nothing happens in the first half of the Fate route.

You know... I'm starting to think that UBW was probably your favorite route (what a betrayal of Illya...) because your analyses of that one were the most organized and chronological of all the three routes.

There's a difference between favourite and best-written. Like, I love HF, but you've got to admit it's a bit of a mess. Lots of points for me to get stuck on and spend way too much time thinking about, whereas UBW is just extremely well-executed.

Incidentally, that describes my feelings about whether I like Rin or Sakura more pretty well.

Illya, of course, combines the best points of both in an imaginary 4th route.

Seriously though why aren't these called Analyzing FSN anymore

Just felt like changing things up a bit. And with it being HF endgame, without a series name in front the topics should all work as good standalone posts (says the guy who just decided to split the Illya one into like three fucking parts)

2
4chan_refugee297•

Jokes aside, I don't really care about getting credited for anything, I just still find it funny I got tagged in your UBW wrap-up post. 'Twas bit of a "Rick Dalton pointing at the screen" moment.

Another thing the day-by-day analysis reveals is that literally nothing happens in the first half of the Fate route.

Perhaps that's something worth covering in a post. Whether or not the Fate route being like that is good thing. Because personally while clamour for a rewrite of the route I fear that any attempt to do so with have unwanted and undesirable ramifications on the rest of the story. FSN can be messy sometimes, but looking at it as a whole it is a very tight and compact experience in a thematic sense.

One of the things I would rewrite about Fate is I would have many of the side characters feature less in the story, mainly Rin and, you will hate me for this, Illya. I find that too much of the early portions of Fate serve as nothing else but a teaser for the rest of the story. You have side characters who receive some very interesting characterization but ultimately never get a proper chance to be properly fleshed out. This poses a problem because said characters feature quite prominently in the plot but are otherwise given no interesting material or do not truly figure into the themes and central story of the route, which is the romance between Shirou and Saber. I mean I can't make it more obvious how much I love Rin but after a while the time spent with the character just feels frustrating and there are moments where I kind of even come to dislike her (but only a wee little bit) because she's quite one note but Nasu keeps shoving her in our face. After her talk with Shirou where we get that monologue from him, the character has essentially served her purpose. Yet she's still there... In a way the comically jarring way in which Illya just disappears from the story as a character after Gilgamesh murdering Caster is actually a lot more graceful and prudent of an exit, which says a lot. And no, I don't find Rin playing wing(wo)man to Shirou particularly compelling. Not because I'm a die hard Rin/Shirou fan, but because she just really feels like Nasu's self-insert mouthpiece.

I think UBW and HF just handle the side characters much better. UBW trims the fat very early on, very quickly and very elegantly by centering our attention on the two central characters which form the romantic couple to exclusion of virtually all else but the looming threat of Archer. In HF the side characters actually matter to Shirou's character arc and the route's themes so they all get properly fleshed out and in a (mostly) balanced way too (I do think HF's many, many subplots end up suffocating what is supposed to be its centrepiece, the romance with Sakura, to the detriment of that storyline). It makes sense for the where these two routes are in the placement of the overall story. But Fate is saddled with the responsibility of having to introduce all these characters so that when they do become actually relevant you don't have to rush the introductions. In that way, Fate's rough early start actually makes UBW and HF's stories better at its own expense. Fixing (what I perceive to be) Fate's central issues would also require doing major rewrites to UBW and HF, and frankly... I'd rather not.

There's a difference between favourite and best-written. Like, I love HF, but you've got to admit it's a bit of a mess. Lots of points for me to get stuck on and spend way too much time thinking about, whereas UBW is just extremely well-executed.

Hmmm... while I would still say UBW is the best written and my favourite (I do not pretend I am not biased), I think this is a fair and fairly accurate assessment. UBW doesn't main for much in comparison to HF but what it does seek out to do it does beyond excellently, while HF is a bit of an Icarus which aims too high and achieves quite a lot but does so in an overall incoherent fashion. What's there is very good, if not excellent, but not everything gels as well as it should, which is why we are never truly going to have a firm consensus on what precisely HF's themes and point about Shirou are, and it's clear Nasu didn't intend it to be ambiguous. I'm not sure my interpretation that the message of HF is not in contradiction of that Fate and UBW would as easily accepted as a lot of everything else I say. I am quite confident that I got UBW "right" too... I sometimes have doubts about HF.

Perhaps... that's a good thing though. A good thing and a bad thing. It reflects both the strengths and weaknesses of HF.

Incidentally, that describes my feelings about whether I like Rin or Sakura more pretty well.

Rin being UBW and Sakura HF, I presume...?

Just felt like changing things up a bit.

It triggers my (non-medically accurate, Monk-lite version of) OCD though.

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typellOPchronic illyaposter•

You have side characters who receive some very interesting characterization but ultimately never get a proper chance to be properly fleshed out. This poses a problem because said characters feature quite prominently in the plot but are otherwise given no interesting material or do not truly figure into the themes and central story of the route, which is the romance between Shirou and Saber.

Exactly! Illya is largely relevant to the plot and Saber+Shirou insofar as she gives them a reason to beat up Berserker. And yet we get multiple meetings with her beforehand utterly unrelated to that conflict, plus the whole mess of why she even wants to kidnap Shirou is left largely unaddressed after he's rescued.

It's mostly important as a way to establish Illya so that she can then be explored in more depth later. Ideally she would do a sort of similar thing to Sakura (albeit with less sharp of a twist) where there's one impression of her built up over a few routes and then BAM new revelations. But Nasu really half-asses it in HF and there's all sorts of rough edges and inconsistencies left in her characterisation.

In that way, Fate's rough early start actually makes UBW and HF's stories better at its own expense. Fixing (what I perceive to be) Fate's central issues would also require doing major rewrites to UBW and HF, and frankly... I'd rather not.

You know, it would be a lot easier if there was a fourth route that some of HF's subplots could be put into.

If I was actually to try rewriting Fate, though, I think my main objective would be getting more things to happen before the fight with Shinji. Exposition/character development isn't so bad when it occurs as a result of action. That said, difficult to imagine what sort of action. All the characters they could possibly get into conflict with are already spoken for, in some sense. Like you said, would probably end up with the other two routes needing rewrites as well. Maybe have more night-time Illya? It's hard to avoid that just turning into an early Berserker fight, though.

I guess the other way would be to focus more on slice-of-life stuff with Shirou and Saber to the exclusion of all the other characters. Have them go shopping together! Actually, have Shirou and Saber meet Illya. That would be fun.

Rin being UBW and Sakura HF, I presume...?

Yep!

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4chan_refugee297•

You know, I think the issue is that the Fate route probably should've focused more on Illya after she moves into the Emiya household rather than before. It's actually obscene just how that route skirts around the fact that Illya seems to have some personal connection to Shirou. It's bewildering how neither Shirou, nor Saber, nor Rin ever seem to just stop and ask Illya why she both seems to want Shirou as a friend yet also seems to have a bit of murder boner for him. Rin brings it up in UBW but not here! Granted, it was in a context where Illya was still a potential threat to both of them but it feels so silly that none of these characters would think to interrogate Illya. You'd think it'd be the ideal way to drop more ominous and mysterious hints about Illya. Sure it would be rather cliched in a way, but the way Illya just stops being a character after Gilg kills Medea is just so absurd.

A broader issue with the Fate route is that the pacing of the romance was actually a pretty strange choice to make for a first route with the story that it has. You can argue that each route is the most romantic of all three in its own unique way and the least romantic one in a completely different one. Fate is the least romantic route in the sense that for the bulk of the story its romance is the most slow paced of up until the Berserker fight when it suddenly amps up to the extreme. And frankly, I have no issue with this as such. To have the romance go so slow yet suddenly speed up so hard should probably make a poor experience but it nonetheless ends up working in my estimation, which is a testament to Nasu's skills as a writer. But this poses a massive issue for the route as a whole since the romance is so slowburn yet there is not really much else to compensate for this early vacuum in the story. The romance is the route. There are no other central subplots like in UBW and HF to keep the audience engaged until the romance heats up, no side characters get developed, the plot itself is rather barebones, the villains are but plot devices, etc. I think a lot fewer people would complain about the Fate route if its romance's development had been more evenly spread out -- in this regard, the romance between Rin and Shirou in UBW is actually a good example, since its pacing is consistent and save for maybe the Archer fight (depending on one's perspective...) it is almost always there, it always has some kind of presence. A lot of people like to say that the exposition is the issue with the first third to a half of Fate but this is just one aspect of the issue, that being that nothing happens plot-wise, thematically or romantically and thus all one is left with is obnoxious SoL scenes that aren't anywhere near as funny as the stuff the VN hits us with later and infodumps by Rin. It would've been best to keep this structure of the romance for a route where there is other interesting stuff going on in the plot or with other relevant side characters. Thus in my estimation, only minor changes can be made to Fate without bringing the whole structure down but I think these minor changes can have massive positive ramifications. Reduce the length of the days, add some more romantic content between Shirou and Saber, don't shove so much exposition and so many irrelevant side characters in our faces... and while Fate doesn't suddenly become as good as UBW and HF, it does get considerably better.

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ShockAndAwen•

I don’t mean to say that Illya is secretly depressed in every scene – she’s clearly having a good time after the end of the Fate route, for example

I mean it MIGHT be, she is not incapable of feeling happiness, but the thought of her fate is definitely always in the back, just like in that scene in the shopping district, she can and does feel happy but she gets sad when she is happy (Nasu is contagious) but yeah is not uncommon to feel that way when you are kind of depressed

She wants things but is too hurt and afraid of rejection, her hopeless state is her "safe" zone where she can expect nothing and resigned to her doom, but is obvious she wants to break from that

In Fate she got accepted so no rejection so she could be at peace but she still was resiged, only after she unexpectedly lives she is finally free, but in HF she is accepted and also breaks from her role on her own

you’ll know I concluded this persona of Illya is a defense mechanism against painful situations

UBW is pretty overt about it too

Illya shows up, whether you are there or not.

100% what happened, she is also used to wait and wait and wait, and takes promises very seriously, she gets mad at Shirou in good part because of that, is like something sacred, and how could it be any other way

The girl waited from within the city eternally sealed within falling snow. The promise that she had exchanged with her father, was the treasure that she valued the most

Nturally she doesn't trust people easily but has super high expectations whenever she starts to open again you can't mess it up because she is very sensitive about that kind of things

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Geoclasm•

saving to read later. I think this might be enlightening.

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NBCLevi•

Cool post but where is the Kirei post?

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typellOPchronic illyaposter•

we're getting there

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NBCLevi•

Good to know. What do you feel will be the next post?

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typellOPchronic illyaposter•

probably about Nine Lives Blade Works

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NBCLevi•

Sweet

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