The Spirit Master - Fully refined and ready to hit your Table!
reddit.com/gallery/vy633nPosted Jul 13, 2022, 3:34 PM UTC
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I love the idea of this class, but I think that the execution of it is a bit clunky. It's unclear where this class wants to be on the battlefield and it shows. So much of the class seems to be focused around or at least mentions melee attacks, but the damage and overall potential of a Spirit Master in melee is quite lacking as your AC is significantly reduced while concentrating, and its damage is capped since it is based on the spirit's stats and not something like your wisdom modifier.
As far as its spellcasting is concerned, I thought it was too powerful at first, but it actually seems quite weak when compared to other full casters. Not only do you not have the flexibility of casters like the Cleric or Druid, but its entirely reliant on you summoning your spirit which reduces your AC, you have a smaller spell list than the majority of other classes, and you have to have the correct spirit summoned.
Speaking of, the mechanics regarding multiple spirits is also quite clunky. As other people have mentioned, there is no good reason not to put all of your perks and spells onto one spirit and only use that one. I think having a rule where you need to alternate them or you get fewer perks, but both get them.
Additionally, the spirit having its own stats separate from yours is interesting, but its current implementation makes for a very weak melee option. I think just having its Strength be equal to your Wisdom modifier would be a lot simpler.
As a very small last bit of criticism, Evolved Form is listed before Mystic Union despite getting it at a later level.
If I had to make any big suggestions, I would recommend either making this class a half-caster and focusing on making the class more martial or keeping it as a full caster with spell slots and changing one of the spirits into being melee-focused for those who want it. Simplifying the summon would also go a long way as nearly 2 pages are dedicated to how it functions with many of the rules also being specific restrictions that feel unnecessary.
Sorry for the wall of text or if this feedback came off as mean as well. I do love the work you've put into this class and I want to see it fully realized. It just needs some changes and I think it will be fantastic.
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Thank you so much for taking a closer look. :)
Its funny that you mention how it's not clear where the SM wants to be positioned in combat - because that's absolutely the intent! It should be a decision you make based on the situation rather than by default.
The core idea behind the whole class is to maximize the number of meaningful decisions you make - inside combat, when leveling up, when designing and developing your character concept - you name it!
Your suggestions (having your WIS as manifestation's STR; half-caster with stronger martial bend) actually mirror exactly what the earliest versions of this class were like.
If dumping all perks and spells on a single spirit seems like such an obvious way to go to you, then I'd like to invite you to grab the form-fillable supplement and build two spirits where you willfully neglect one of them - and then check if it's actually all that great. ;)
Did you notice that...
- Each spirit has a very useful summon effect gained at level 3 (right at the level where you first have two). To get the most out of the class, you'll probably want to use both of them each combat.
- Each spirit will have at least 2 perks and 1 spell (and at least 3 perks / 2 spells past level 10)? If you want to maximize your advantages/power, you'll probably want to use both.
- Each spirit's spell list is quite limited - and no spell can be learned twice. If you want to be as impactful as possible, you'll probably want to choose from both of your spirits' lists, which is only useful if you're ready to use both of them in combat.
- Each time you level up, you can exchange an old spell for a new one. Your favorite spirit may already have the best spells it can learn at its level. If you're an optimizer, you'll probably want to teach your unloved spirit a new spell. Still not tempted to use it too?
- At 10th level, you get nothing at all if you choose to fully ignore your other spirit. Do the benefits you gain from that really outweigh the costs?
- Building two spirits that specialize for different situations comes very naturally for this class. Being able to switch to a spirit that excells at taking out many small enemies, at reducing or dealing a certain damage type, at absorbing damage, healing or disabling key targets - that's a massive advantage. Is your big one-size-fits-all spirit really SO strong that it can make up for its lack of flexibility?
- Losing concentration can really ruin your
dayround. You could waste a spell slot on removing weakened on your favorite spirit - but is that really worth it when you could simply switch to a different capable manifestation? - Some perks - such as the spirit specific ones that require level 5 - are really impactful. Would it really be most optimal to stack a "meh" perk (since you picked all your favorite ones for it already) on your "main" spirit - or would picking up a very strong one on your other spirit be more of a game changer?
I'm sure you get the idea. :)
Playing favorites and trying to build an "overleveled charizard" is absolutely fine and I want it to be a valid option for RP purposes - but utilizing both spirits as much as possible should actually be the most optimal/powerful way to go. Coincidentally, this should also lead to the most interesting tactical decisions.
I have a feeling that you'll appreciate the class more after trying it out a bit (and I'd be stoked to hear again from you then)!
Very nice catch on Evolved Form!! I think I'll sneakily fix that and upload a new version - let's pretend it was always in the correct order... :)
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Faster, Better, Stronger!
Based on the amazing feedback to the initial release, these key changes have been made to make the Spirit Master even smoother to play:
- Adjusted Action Economy and Movement- The Spirit Master stays true to its unique summoning roots and refuses to bog down play with multiple actions per turn. At the same time, they can now maneuver more freely and their manifestations now align much better with the rules for pets introduced in Tasha's.
- Revamped and simplified Spellcasting- While retaining what makes their spellcasting unique, a lot of the ballast of the old casting system has been discarded in favor of a familiar Warlock-like style.- Furthermore, Spirit Master's now maintain concentration for their manifestation's spells, giving you greater freedom to switch spirits mid-combat - and even greater incentive to use your manifestations to keep the Spirit Master save!- Finally, the new Vital Reciprocity feature and revised Versatile Powers perk allow for more utility choices and new options in unexpected situations.
- Balance Fine-Tuning- Fewer drawbacks while concentrating on a manifestation- Spell slots and manifestation stat increases have gotten slightly more plentiful- Certain spells and perks have been slightly rebalanced and a new perk has been added - Shifter!
Overall, these changes should make the Spirit master a little more potent and a lot more fun to play! I'm once again eager for your feedback and always ready to make adjustments.
If you haven't already, then NOW is the time to bring your very own Spirit Master to life for a completely new adventure!!
>> Click here for the full PDF!<<*(The pictures in this post are only a preview and don't contain the whole class.)*
You'll also find a custom and fully form-fillable character sheet supplement there - lovingly crafted by yours truly. :)
EDIT: Seems like some of the preview pics have been distorted during the upload...Please check out the full PDF for a better reading experience - sorry about that!
EDIT 2: The large file size lead to people getting error messages when trying to download the PDF. This is fixed now - sorry for the inconvenience and many thanks to those who informed me about this issue!!
EDIT 3: I sneakily updated both the Spirit Master PDF (fixing some simple formating / wording issues). The form-fillable char sheet supplement has also been updated to work flawlessly now. Thanks for the valuable feedback - please keep it coming!!
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That was interesting. Tried to download the PDF and google has warned the file is infected with a virus
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I hope you are kidding. Let me contact a mod to clarify this.
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Nah I've got that as well, I can still print to pdf though.
It's a fantastic concept, well done.
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Thanks for letting me know - it should be fixed now!
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I have a screenshot if you need it sending somewhere
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I suspect that you're either using an untrustworthy software to open the PDF or your system is set up to detect form-fillable PDF files as dangerous.
Let's continue this discussion via PM.
Please send me the error message you're getting there.
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Got the infected warning as well. Hope it gets cleared up soon cause the class sounds great and I'd love to nab a copy
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The error message was a result of too large file size. i reversed my latest attempts at making things extra-pretty and reigned in the file size. At least you won't get any more errors now... :)
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This is absurdly great, but straight to the point, it’s weird how you solved all the clunkiness but none of the balance problems.
When OP last posted it, I already said how unnecessary this whole concentration thing felt.
And well, I still feel the same. It’s completely unnecessary and even goes above and beyond to be harmful. It takes a big chunk of the fun away at every tier, but mainly at higher levels.
And again, the worst problem with this class hasn’t been addressed at all.
Most, if not all, of the clunkiness has been addressed and solved, so that’s good. I do thank you for that.
And aside from the concentration, which is a controversial decision but not absolutely terrible nonetheless, I really have to applaud all the effort that went here. This is truly borderline perfectly designed.
Even the new concentration is at least better than before lol.
But now, as for my main problem…
Yeah, this is super well designed. But being well designed does not by any means make it balanced.
And sorry, this goes above and beyond any acceptable level of broken lol.
And I am, of course, talking about the spellcasting.
Better martial capacities than most martials, 7 level 5 spells which is almost twice what the Warlock has plus level 6 and beyond spell casting?
Sorry, that’s not okay.
As I said before, for as long as you make this a Full Caster, it will be broken.
Just look at how casters basically can’t ever do anything other than cast a spell or a cantrip. With very big exceptions such as Moon Druids, who also can’t cast spells while in beast form until Tier-4.
Meanwhile, this thing hits better than a Fighter and casts better than a Warlock.
I don’t even need to extended myself on why this is broken lol. You basically made Bladesinger into a SAD class which is also better on everything but AC.
Aside from that, I still think that the two spirits system is bad design, and that your choice of spirit should remain as one (like any normal subclass).
Because as you made it, it’s ridiculous to even think about wasting perks on two spirits. Making one deus-EX-machina is just so much better that this option is useless.
And you were aware of that.
And to solve it, you put the level 10 there as a dead level that just forces you to make your main thing weaker for the sake of your weak summon to become at least usable, which is again, bad design.
Last time I wrote at least 1.000 lines on the topic, but I think this much should suffice lol.
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Thank you very much for the kind words - and the constructive feedback! :)
I appreciate a critical remarks especially and - as you can see from the recent changes - I definitely consider them seriously as well.
Better martial capacities than most martials, 7 level 5 spells which is almost twice what the Warlock has plus level 6 and beyond spell casting?
I wholeheartedly invite you to build something broken with this class. If you can, I won't hesitate to adjust things accordingly.
The melee damage output is tuned to be relevant at all stages in the game, but never to meet the level of a martial combatant. The same goes for the spellcasting. It's meant to be powerful and viable but never quite reach the heights of a wizard. Sounds a lot like a hexblade warlock, right?
For melee damage, let's consider a pact of the blade hexblade for comparison. A manifestation making two attacks per round sounds powerful, but having comparatively ability scores and a low damage die nullifies the advantage.
Level 1 manifestation (14 STR, 1d6+2, 60% hit chance, two attacks)
==> 6,6 average damage
Level 1 Warlock (16 CHA, 2d6+3, 65% hit chance)
==> 6,5 average damage
Level 6 manifestation (18 STR, 1d6+4, 65% hit chance, three attacks)
==> 14,6 average damage
Level 6 warlock (18 CHA, 2d6+4, 65% hit chance, two attacks)
==> 14,3 average damage
Level 12 manifestation (20 STR, 2d6+5, 65% hit chance, three attacks)
==> 23,4 average damage
Level 12 warlock (20 CHA, 2d6+10, 65% hit chance, two attacks)
==> 22,1 average damage
Can a manifestation deal meaningful melee damage?
Yes. It even deals a tiny bit more (less then 5%) than a melee warlock. At the same time, specializing for melee DPR like this also means the SM's defenses will be lacking somewhat.
Does it exclipse what a martial character can do?
No - not even remotely. Check out the numbers for a barbarian with Great Weapon Master or a battle master with either Sharp Shooter or the classic Polearm Master + GWM combo. No matter how you customize your SM, it will never steal those guys show in terms of sheer damage output.
Now, let's look at the spell casting:
- Warlocks have fewer spell slots on paper, but they regain them on a short rest. Now this varies table to table - some have 8 encounters per day and take 3-4 short rests in between - but even if we are very conservative and only assume 1 short rest per day, you'll find that the warlock has more spell slots than the SM - at all tiers of play.
- Warlocks know more spells and have much greater versatility in their casting. Lat's say our level 10 party faces off against a horde of enemies - and in their midst a single, towering boss:
The warlock could cast cone of cold on turns 1 and again on turn two. Once the horde is cleared out, they could hit the boss with a banishing smite for massive damage. They have 11 spells and can pick the most optimal one each turn.
The SM on the other hand has 5 spells, available. They have half as many as the warlock and each spell can only be cast once. Also, only two of their spells can actually be 5th level spells at this point. The SM's loadout may look something like this:
Wrath of Nature (fey), Confusion (fey), Counterspell (fey), Geas (celestial), Aura of Vitality (celestial) - powerful and useful spells, but not all of them will be especially useful in that particular fight.
After the fight is done, the warlock regains all of his spells, while the SM needs to manage with what they have left over.
Do Spirit Masters have access to good spells?
Yes, but their selection will always be limited. Luckily, they have ways of using spell slots for minor benefits that would otherwise go unused.
Will the party warlock/wizard feel like someone is stealing their thunder?
Most certainly not.
I sincerely hope that this conveyed some perspective on why I believe that the SM neither outperforms martials in combat, nor casters in spell casting. I think SMs are much like warlocks in both regards - but with unique benefits and drawbacks that set them apart nicely.
As for the concepts of switching between two spirits and of making tactical decisions around protecting the SM with them: I don't think I can convince you of why these are so cool to me - and I also think that's perfectly fine. My goal is to make a class that is both thematically and mechanically unique and interesting. It's inevitable that my creation won't be to everyone's tastes - but I hope others can still enjoy it! :)
Either way, your feedback has been tremendously helpful!
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A few problems that i found
EVOLVED FORM is above MYSTIC UNION even tho it's a ability a level higher than MYSTIC UNION (not a big problem i just found weird we learn what we get in lvl 6 before lvl 5)
BONE BLAST spell doesn't specify what happens when the enemy roll successfully
On the custom pdf for the spirits i found two bugs, the first one doesn't let me select and place a image on the image slots, i don't know why, and the second is that when writing in the middle column of RELATIONSHIP & GOALS it bugs and the text is duplicated for the other two columns, and if you erase the text created in those columns it dissapear on the middle
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Wow - those are some nice catches! :)
The Evolved Form one is already on my to-do list. Please expect the problem to disappear miraculously very soon (I'll fix it and upload the file to the same destination).
Bone Blast does the same thing most other spells do when the target makes their save - nothing... :( At least you try to break them again on your next turn! ;)
In order to add pictures to a PDF, you'll either need Acrobat Reader DC (which is unfortunately on a paid subscription model now) or you need to find another tool to do it. If anyone mentions a fitting free app to me for this, I'll let you know!
I'm very impressed you found the glitch in the Relationship & Goals sheet! This should be easy for me to fix. Please expect an updated char sheet to appear on the google drive folder this Friday!
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Overdrive2000 has made the following comment(s) regarding their post:
Faster, Better, Stronger!
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Imagine being a level 1 SM and the evil sorcerer you're fighting casts burning hands - hitting both yourself and your manifestation. There's a good chance you'd die of massive damage instantly... :P
Same situation at mid-levels when fighting an Oni that uses cone of cold, etc.
Taking double damage from a blast is simply not fun and it's not necessary to have it as a weakness for this class either, as it already has very clearly defined weaknesses (such as being focused by multiple enemy attacks in a single turn).
Keep in mind that whoever is fighting a manifestation will always be nearby the SM as well, so targeting them directly with that fireball or lightning bolt will always be an option.
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Imagine being a 1st level character and dying to an unlucky roll, unimaginable.
- Any other level 1 PC (10 HP) gets hit with burning hands for 3d6:
==> They are likely to drop to 0 HP and roll a death save. Kinda dire, but usually not the end of the world. It's absolutely impossible to die outright. - A level 1 SM, standing next to their manifestation for protection, gets hit by the same spell for 6d6:
==> They are likely to be killed outright. Even an average damage roll would be enought to kill via massive damage (DMG p. 273). Game over - no death saves.
I can understand why this may be your gut reaction, but I've put a lot of thought into this and there is simply no reason why the SM should be that much more prone to death than any other class.
Make it so if both you and the manifestation take damage from an area effect, you both take half damage (meaning that the total damage is the same as for another character).
Currently the SM takes 100% damage and the manifestation 0%. The total is exactly the same as it is for any other class (and the same as in your example).
Note that the SM shares their HP pool with their manifestations. If this wasn't the case, then I'd be 100% with you. Maybe you just missed that detail. I don't blame you at all if this was the case - it's a LOT of text! Thank you for taking the time to readmy brew in the first place! :)
... most of the time the PC will try to stay as far away from the manifestation as possible.
Actually, standing next to their manifestation is the safest place to be for the SM in many situations - especially when enemies have ranged attacks. At level 1, your AC will be around 9, so being protected by a AC 15 manifestation would likely be your best bet - even if half-cover was available.
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This is cool as hell! Nice work!
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I'm glad you like it! :D
My only goal is to bring something new and exciting to many tables - without stepping on the toes of the original classes and without stealing the spot light from others in the group.
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Sick, I’ve gotta read more of this later.
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It's a bit of a long read, but I assure you that it's worth it! :)
Making the text as concise as possible to respect the reader's time has been a priority for me.
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Looks like fun!
And now to ask whomever next DMs if I can use this…
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DMs have a tendency of liking characters whose story ties directly into their world. With a Spirit Master, it would be quite the challenge not to do exactly that... :)
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Who did the art in this? A lot of it is really awesome and I'd love to look up more of their work!
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If you check out the full PDF, you can find links to all the artists on the credits page at the very end.
I strongly encourage that you check all of them out and support them in any way you can! I actually reached out to all of them - not everyone came back to me, but at least I didn't include any art from artists who asked me not to use theirs.
If you are looking for art to represent your own spirit manifestations, then you should definitely check out Peter Mohrbach and The Art of Po Wen in particular. While those two stand out to me, in truth all of the featured art for this class is absolutely stunning and I can't praise the artists enough!!
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So I've got a class concept similar to this I've been working on. I'd love to collaborate if you got the time!
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Sure thing! Designing a whole class can be quite daunting, but also really fun. I spent years on the Spirit Master, so I feel like I actually have some expertise at this point that may be worth sharing. :)
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Do you have an email or something? I can send you what I have already!
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I would love to try this I wish DND beyond would let u make a class and not subclasses
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I wish I could port this class straight to D&D Beyond and various virtual table tops - but even with just an electronic character sheet, you should be able to play the Spirit Master online without any trouble.
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I enjoy a lot about this class and this is absolutely the tiniest little nitpick but it really bothers me that you specify that the spirit can't speak. Like, I feel like that really limits roleplay options for very little reason.
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Among other reasons, that detail is meant to highlight how spirits aren't quite on the same level of consciousness as a PC. I like the idea of a spirit saying only their name (like a pokemon) or their purpose (such as a restless celestial spirit of justice) - the intonation of those simple utterances themselves could already convey a lot of emotion and character without taking up too much spotlight time. Imagine a demonic spirit only uttering otherworldly incantations when they cast their evil magic - and when they do want to "speak" to you, they do it by sending thoughts, visions or feelings into your mind. You'd never quite know if those are your own or if you're being manipulated. Well, as a player you DO know, but you can still decide how your PC interprets and acts upon them. There's a LOT to play with here - and the Creating a Spirit Master section at the end can hopefully help jump-start your imagination!
Pragmatically speaking, spirits aren't meant to "take up space" in conversations more than necessary. Just like the SM's turn in combat should take no longer than that of any other PC, should they not take up more spotlight in conversations than any other PC.
Finally, not speaking isn't a hard-and-fast rule. Much like Pokemon's Mewtwo, Meowth and Lucario, your spirits may be uniquely gifted in terms of speech, while other spirits may simply go "Ora Ora ORA!" and be cool in their own way. Speak with your DM and go with whatever you find most interesting! :)
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Best of luck and happy homebrewing!
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This class is so interesting and i feel it is very balanced. I also think the idea of 2 spirits is pretty cool.I'm going to use it for an NPC in a one-shot campaign to test the strenght of the SM.I don't understand how the damage reduction is supposed to work: in the class some features make the manifestation take X less dmg from some sources of dmg, this mitigation is applied before or after resistance?
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I have a few questions/concerns, but first, THANK you for making a summoner that doesn't have oodles of tiny spirits. Sincerely, every DM.
If I have a speed of 35 from a race/ancestry, is my spirit just inherently slower than me at 30 ft? Or if I take mobile... Could it just share my speed?
What is the point of having the spirit take a hit for you? Is it just when the combo of it's DEX + your WIS grants a higher AC than your own armor + DEX? If I read it right, you share HP, and even with the resistance perk, you both gain the resistance. Also... If I get caught in a dragon's breath do I just die? I would take the damage twice because it hits us both, so it's like a critical hit by default...
Also, I don't understand concentration on the spirit. Do I need to concentrate to keep the spirit active? If it breaks, you specify that the spirit is weakened but now I'm not concentrating on it. Can I re-concentrate on it, or do I have to summon a new one?
The class takes a bit to wrap one's head around, but once you do it's (hopefully) surprisingly simple! :D
The main goal with this class was to create a summoner that doesn't take up more time on their turn than anyone else in the group - and also to maximize the number of interesting decisions the player makes on each turn and on each level up.
Regarding movement:
You could...
On why Guardian Spirit (the manifestation taking hits for you) is useful:
On concentration:
You need to maintain concentration on a spirit just like you would for a spell. However, one of the key differences is that failing a CON save doesn't mean your concentration ends. Your spirit merely gets weakened for a round.
This still kinda sucks though, so you may want to circumvent the condition by switching to your other spirit or by using Vital Reciprocity to burn a spell slot and remove the condition immediately.
Both the class feature design (splitting perks and spells on the two spirits) and the way concentration works are meant to incentivize switching your spirits mid-combat - either to capitalize on an opportunity or to circumvent a bad situation.