"omg it's just satire guys. btw, dae wonder why this fandom have such a big nazi problem?"
Posted Aug 11, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC
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He is a piece of shit in the lore so I dunno, the reference kinda fits.
255
Yeah he's literally an ultra-evil necromancer
And I don't recall that faction being a chud-magnet
Also Krell's updated model was lovely
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Bingo. It's the good guys you need to watch. The amount of Chad worship surrounding Karl Franz, for one.
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Ive seen healthy Warhammerites Enjoy KF, why is he a yikes?
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Im confused too isnt he a straight up paragon hero
35
The character himself is fine, considering, but he attracts a certain amount of 'glorious Chad leader for hard times to lead us through constant valour and vigilance' sort of mien. Plus the whole 'I care not for your magic strength or natural talents or craven tactics, we are civilised men and we will prevail through strength of will and unity' sort of thing.
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KF is a kinda bland character in a kinda bland faction. He's not a superhero, not particularly gifted at anything, not a chosen one. He's just a competent leader and likeable for being such an underdog among all those godlike characters.
The problem is what he represents in that setting and why chuds find that attractive. It's the FOR SIGMAR thing.
The Empire is a place in which witch hunter is a hero character. Hunting witches makes sense for the setting - it's a place in which sinning can literally turn you into a tentacle monster. Races are also pretty real and pretty defining of character. It's a place in which asking for genocide (of Orcs, Skaven, Chaos-worshipping cultures) is sensible. There's no irony in that and no getting around that, it's how the WH Fantasy world works. The greatest evils are sex, thirst for knowledge, dirtyness and rage (dressed in red). The Mary Sue good guys, the High Elfs, are worldwide capitalists who practice slavery, but they're still pure - their weakness described as "arrogance".
Chuds (despite their infamous Nuglish tendencies) think our world runs along the same lines. So their FOR SIGMAR is the fantasy version of the religious right battle cry against trans people, "communists" and such.
2
He's an otherwise pretty ordinary if virtuous man doing his best for his people in a civilisation up against the wall and not far away from a last stand. That's not problematic as a concept. There are monsters in the world, too many of them, and he's fighting them for his people, and inspiring them to united, rally, and prosper.
And what's telling about The Empire is that Witch Hunters aren't centered the way that say, Inquisitors would be in 40k, they're often talked about as being incorrect, and it leans in hard towards witch-hunter and 'burning the innocent because Christian nutters' tropes that live a lot more natively in the faux 15th century setting that is The Empire. That the Witch Hunters are CONTRASTED against other heroes is telling, I think.
High elves aren't Mary Sues, and you're leaving out the Dwarves entirely, and you're being disingenuous about the Chaos Gods.
4
He is certainly gifted at things. He is said to be the greatests statesman, diplomat and politician the old world has ever seen. Those things just don't transfer into the games very well. He also has an incredibly strong will and charisma, he can ride the Imperial dragon because he is the only person in the Empire it finds worthy.
I do agree that The Empire draws some chuds though, it's very similiar to the Imperial Guard in 40K with the "regular humans against a nightmare world" tropes. Still, the Empire is portrayed as clearly flawed, witch hunters in particular are clearly depicted as mad and usually evil individuals who kill a hundred innocents for every chaos worshipper.
Same with the high elves, I would not call them mary sue when they really fucked up the world and themselves through arrogance on several occasions.
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If any faction represents the 3rd reich, the druchii are what the nazis saw themselves as but the Skaven are what they were really like:
- Constant infighting and factionalism
- Dependence on slave labor and unsustainable economic practices
- Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies
- Constant lack of resources such as warpstone (oil, steel, aluminum) or food (food) and dependence on expansion to obtain said resources
- Victories are due to subterfuge and taking the initiative from weaker opponents, attacking a prepared, peer rival ends in disaster
- Chronic inability for leaders to take any responsibility
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You had me at (food)
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They even have the same crippling drug addiction!
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Oh man, can you imagine if Hitler wasn't just on meth but on the magical crossbred offspring of cocaine and uranium?
The ways Skaven use warpstone is wild
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Hitler wishes he was cool enough to do meth. Bikers wouldn’t let him have any of their crank so he had to do regular old amphetamines. All the high, none of the cat piss smell.
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Skaven are definitely rat Nazis.
Side note: The fact that skaven are canonically unable to take responsibility for failures is hilarious.
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They're the greatest satire of fascism I've seen since Terry Gilliam's Brazil
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The Skaven were indeed intentionally modelled after the Nazis (hence "Stormvermin")
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Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies
At least when Skaven wonder weapons work they're actually effective.
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I just realized I missed a MAUS pun......I'll head to lustria as penence.
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you're missing the "they have to establish special labor camps to kill the undesirables because the troops they have purging them in their occupied territory are either killing themselves or actively rebelling"
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I have no idea what this is referring to but I'm very interested
-1†
🤨
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The Nazis established Auschwitz and other camps in part because they had morale issues when their standard troops were asked to purge people.
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...sorry, you'll have to explain this. What's the link between Nazis and Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the Malleus Maleficarum, one of history's most famous treatises on witchcraft, demons, and necromancy?
Kramer was a power-mad lunatic who was accused of being in league with the devil himself, but gained popularity late in his life when the witch trials he inspired were picking up steam. I'm not aware of him being a Nazi icon?
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Sounds German and the Germans had Nazis, idk what op is talking about tbh
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Heinrich Kemmler is also a reference to Heinrich Himmler.
10†
Yea gonna need a source for this one.
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I mean, in as much as there is a passing similarity between their names, I suppose it could be charitably called a reference.
Edit: Honestly having given it some thought I think it's possible the two could be connected in a way that's a bit less than a full reference. My guess (and to be clear this is 100% a guess) is that the name "Kemmler" may have been chosen because it kind of has a threatening and evil edge to it, likely because it sounds pretty close to the very well known name "Himmler". Otherwise I can't find any narrative or artistic similarities that really immediately tie the two together.
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I always thought it was a reference to the necromancer of the same name in the Dresden Files books. Granted that guy sided with the Nazis but idk
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How so?
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You don’t say...
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Ah, I never realized. Thanks kinda sketch tbh.
-5†
I'll be honest, I had never heard of Heinrich Kramer (also autocorrect keeps suggesting Heinrich Heine) untill mentioned in this thread.
I also thought Kemmler was named after Himmler because both are evil whackadoos dabbling in the occult.
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I mean to be fair, “Kemmler” is a lot closer to “Himmler” than it is to “Kramer”. Maybe it’s just a coincidence tho.
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Well, the Nazis were notoriously huge on the occult and had a whole wing of scientists that did a lot of research on such things as Kramer's works in the crazed hope of finding a magic wonderweapon to win the war with. Kemmler also sounds like Himmler. The character is probably meant to be an amalgam of the two Heinrichs, no?
3†
By this logic, almost any Empire wizard could be a Nazi reference, because they all use magic and all have names that, being German, a Nazi probably had at some point.
Adolphus Krieger? Sure sounds like Adolf Hitler + Blitzkrieg. Pretty sus.
Karl Franz? Combo of Karl Donitz and Franz Halder, clearly. Not to be trusted.
Josef Bugman? More like Josef Mengele.
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Josef Bugman was a dwarf tho and we all know dwarfs love Reagan
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That's even worse!
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Those certainly sound like much greater stretches, but fair enough.
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And like even if you and OP are right, and it is a Himmler reference, Kemmler is specifically in text very much a "bad dude you shouldn't like" character, so even then it's a dumb argument to say that means GWs supporting nazis or whatever
That's like saying Wolfenstein supports nazism because it has nazis in it
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Karl Franz is most likely a reference to Austrian Emperor Franz Karl. And the name of his noble house Holwig Schliestein, which really is just Schleswig Holstein with some letters swapped.
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So this guy is basically a German Rasputin?
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German name = bad, GW Bad
OP is shit stirring and doenst have a scooby
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That’s what satire is? Kemmler is an evil dude that goes around destroying shit and his name is based off another evil dude from nazi germany. It’s… it’s purposefully naming them like that to mock the inspiration. How is this worthy of ridicule?
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Why are we giving references to these Nazi fuckers though? They say you never really die until the last time someone says your name, yet here goes GW naming (albeit evil) characters after these cunts.
-103
What are you even talking about???? Should we not have nazis, or even groups that may or may not be inspired by them, in games or media even as explicit irredeemable antagonists?
Hell by this logic even discussing nazis historically would be preventing their "second death" or whatever you are talking about. I hope I don't have to explain to you why that's crazy person logic
103
Yeah, I guess you’re right.
I just disagree with it. There’s not much else to it. Guess I’m in the minority though, judging by the downvotes lol.
-1
I mean they didn't. It's a common German last name. You might as well says it's a referenser to Henrich Kramer.
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Also erasing evil from history also erases their victims.
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The last thing we should be doing is forgetting Nazis. Historical erasure of horrific events is a surefire way of having them repeat themselves.
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Uhhh, GNU Heinrich Himmler? Is that what's going on here?
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This one seems like a bit of a stretch, to be honest
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Totally. German names aren't inherently Nazi. Even if it's supposed to be a reference to Himmler, Kemmler isn't exactly a heroic character.
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It doesn't help that Kemmler is just a normal german surname.
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Yes it's the Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka = Margaret Thatcher debate all over again.
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O shit 🤯, na that's real
43
I’m sorry what?
1
It's commonly believed that Ghaz's full name is a reference to Thatcher. AFAIK there's no indication of actual intent for this and the resemblance is debatable (it took me a while to understand what people meant) but it's a long enduring point of debate .
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It's also extremely funny which is the only reason I choose to believe its true.
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Heinrich never felt like a problematic element though. He's always presented as a full on villain. GW never even tried to give him a tragic backstory, a philosophy of saving the majority by sacrificing a few, convincing himself he's in the 'right,' or even having friends he treats nicely.
142
Yeah the 'tragic' villain of the undead is Helman Ghorst & Family. Heini was always just a power hungry little shit.
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Character has a German name and IS AN OBVIOUS BAD GUY=promoting nazis?; As many others in the comments have said, Warhammer has a nazi/fascist problem but Kemmler isn’t part of it.
127
I don’t see the link with nazis?
It’s a reference to an author who wrote about witchcraft…
84
As well as Heinrich Kramer, Kemmler is almost certainly a reference to Heinrich Himmler, who was highly interested in magic/occultism. GW have been responsible for lots of pun names like that, especially back in the day when Kemmler was first thought up. Even with that in mind it seems to me to be a bit of a leap to interpret that as something which means Warhammer isn't for everyone.
-18
Almost certainly? Gonna want a source other than "the names are german and kinda sound a bit alike." In what way is Heinrich similar to Himmler as a character? Is there any link at all other than "the names are kinda similar?"
Seriously, this is looking for problems where there are none - there are plenty of real problems with the way GW operates and the way they portray things in the lore, this isnt one of them.
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Honestly my suspicion (based on my experience picking names for dudes and places in D&D campaigns) is that GW did the 1980s equivalent of a wiki binge and just picked something that sounded menacing and unique but also plausibly real
Whether it's a reference to Heinrich Kramer or Heinrich Himmler is academic, really; often writers just grab names that sound right without giving a shit about the implications
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I'm afraid that, as far as I know, there isn't one - in the same way that I don't know of any source which categorically states that he's a reference to Heinrich Kramer, which several people have asserted in this thread (and which I also agree with). Unless there's an interview with a relevant writer/developer somewhere on this specific point, we can only go off of speculation. I would similarly say that Doktor Festus is 'almost certainly' a reference to Doctor Faustus based on the extremely similar names and the play on words involved (only almost because it's not actually officially confirmed, since it's even closer than Kemmler/Himmler).
If it wasn't clear in my comment, I agree that it isn't a problem. To me it's a piece of Warhammer trivia, like Lizardmen with pun names like Tiktaq'to. Suggesting that GW was intending anything pro-Nazi by this is going quite far in my opinion.
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Yea Warhammer absolutely has a nazi problem but this one is a bit of a stretch.
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As someone else already noted, his name actually references Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the Malleus Maleficarum
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Op be like
German = Nazi
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Nah bro if you horrificly mispronounce the name, ignore the actual influence, and replace like half the letters then its exactly the same as Himmler bro!
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So thats where we are now ? We see a german name and we scream "omg GW nazi" ? There is a real problem with Warhammer community and GW pretending not to see the problem, so why are we searching causes where they arent while some guys are still painting swastika on black templars a'd some GW store are still accepting them ?
Even if it was a reference to a nazi (which is not), Kemmler is one of the (very) early still satiric character. A lot of characters created in this time especially in 40k were actually references to nazis but it was fine as long as they were unambiguiously pictured as bad. Like, i have no problem with having Nazi represented in Wolfenstein, but if the next game show them as heros then i ll have a big problem.
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I don‘t get it, Kemmler is literally just a place in Germany.
Are German names now just anti-semitic in general and every fictional character needs go have a name like John Smith?
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Yes, the Second American Revolution will be global, all shall be named "Steve" and eat only McDonalds
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That's a generic german name....
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You need to stop being a weird scold about a bad guy in a tabletop game
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the existence of Vlad von Carstein does not imply that Wames GorkorpossiblyMorkshop endorses the impalement of Turks.
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At least Kemmler is an actual villainous character.
In 40k this guy would be somebody's chapter master lol
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I mean he's an evil necromancer sooooo
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Weird to focus on a name that sounds a bit like a nazi, I mean if you're looking for far-right politics in WHFB the insane and terrible background for Savage Orcs is right there.
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The 40k character Torquemada Coteaz is much closer to what you're going for here IMO.
He's a reference to Tomás de Torquemada which GW is probably made because of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch, but he's presented as a guy whose mostly concerned with fighting daemons and rooting out corruption within the Inquisition.
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I kind of assumed he was inspired by the Torquemada from 2000AD (given GW seemed to take a lot of inspiration from them for early 40k), although it seems that character was also based on the historical figure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada_(comics)
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Also possible.
The objection remains the same, they clearly knew that Torquemada was the name of a real Inquisitor and make him a good guy the standards of the setting. If he had a personality like Fyodor Karamazov it would've been in better taste.
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Warhammer has a Nazi problem because fascists are incapable of understanding satire. It will go over their heads and they will enjoy the media uncritically and at face value.
Ironically this is OP, as Heinrich Kemmler is definitely not any kind of endorsement Nazism.
Yeah. OP would have a point if Kemmler was a vaunted hero of the Empire or something, but he’s not, he’s one of the most irredeemable bastards in the whole Warhammer mythos.
Warhammer Fantasy was never a satire in remotely the same vein as Rogue Trader, as Rogue Trader's brand of satire was far more political than the outright assault against tolkien-esque fantasy that made up Early WHFB. The focus was never quite aligned towards the same things
That being said, neither remain satire today and you simply have not read modern 40k or WHFB/AoS lore if you think they are defensible as such. Thats almost a bigger problem when you realize half of the Space Marine books out there are unironically making the "strong men hard times" argument
I figure any satire was just residual from ripping off 2000AD, not really intentional commentary from GW.
Rick Priestley (iirc) said Rogue Trader was intended as satire at the time. But you're probably right in that it was doing so because of its sources
Poe’s Law
True, though you're glossing over the fact that pretty much since 2nd edition GW has been slowly dialing back the satire, trying to make the game more marketable to first kids, then edgy teens, and lately star wars fans.
Its only really black library who needs the satire in order to make 40k an interesting setting for storytelling, for GW the satirical, punk-ish elements are just standing in the way of more mass appeal.
GW cares not from where the money flows.
I mean, you can do it. But not if you’re taking fascism seriously as a threatening ideology. As long as they have some measure of strength they can latch onto in a work, that’s all that matters to fascists.
Theoretically, it should also be possible to do this if they have power but the work systematically crushes every drop of it underfoot, but I think most people would be hard-pressed to accomplish this while maintaining an element of satire. After all, you’d kind of need an energetic hatred of fascism to be imbued in the work, and hate - justified or not - doesn’t gel well in satirical pieces unless it’s being mocked.
And then you schedule a game and they never show up, and are never seen again...
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