Dragoneer: Furfright security harassed congoers
furaffinity.net/journal/3969859/
furaffinity.netPosted Oct 29, 2012, 8:02 AM UTC
7157
furaffinity.netNormally I don't trust a good god damn thing Dragoneer says, but since I have two other close friends who have complained about the same thing at that con I'm more likely to believe him about this. It got so bad they stopped going a few years ago.
Someone needs to kick that security dude in the dick. I'm mean shit a good number of them are fat old dudes. Would not be hard t do and get away with.
22
There are many more people in the comments on Dragoneer's journal with similar stories as well. Remember that people commenting there aren't necessarily his friends, just people who follow him on FA.
The Dorsai's abuse has been going on for years, it's just been small enough to get lost in the crowd (so to speak). Not anymore. They've gone too far, for too long.
11
If even 50% of this is true, the volunteer security people involved need to give a public apology and promise not to do it again. It's also good that Dragoneer simply said "no" to power tripping.
14
If someone grabbed my chest during a fursuiting parade, I'd press charges for sexual harassment. It is absolutely awful that con security is acting this way.
12
Assault is good enough, sexual harassment should be limited to... actually sexual things. Best not dull the blade for actual cases of it.
5
It's sexual if the person happens to be a woman... You know. Boobs.
9
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-6
If someone grabbed my breasts you better believe I'd press charges for sexual harassment. Assault is not good enough for me, sorry.
9
The dorsai are a bunch of basement dwelling neckbearded fucks just ITCHING for the chance to take all their years of social misery and project it with authoritarian gusto onto anybody they please.
They're a bunch of shitheads who openly mock the fandom, attempt to project authority where they have none (like breaking up room parties, I'm a guest of the hotel, this has nothing to do with you, fuck off) and generally being a bunch of ruffians.
11
So who ARE the Dorsai? I thought it was just FF's funny way of saying security, but sounds like they're at other cons. Who are they?
8
They are a group of ppl hired to do security. They aren't real security guards...just random ppl. They've let the illusion of power get to their heads, and they need to be shut down.
15
They are a group who offer security services, mostly to SciFi (and now furry) conventions. Despite this, they have no formal security training or certifications.
Ironically, they were started in response to hired security at a SciFi con who were harassing and causing problems with the attendees.
In the Furry world, they are now used by Anthrocon, FurFright, Furry Connection North, and IndyFurCon.
9
I think of them more as a paramilitary organization... Which probably fosters their "above the law" abusive tenancies. Best to avoid the four cons listed above.
7
... well, I'm cancelling my Anthrocon plans now. :/
4
I was at Anthrocon '12 and I encountered no harassment.
0
I've been two AC2010 and AC2012 and have never had problems with the Dorsai. Keep in mind that not all of them may attend the same cons.
-2
So, they are just con security, not even actual furries (well, maybe some of them)?
2
Nope, not furries. Here's their website where they explain who they are.
5
Some members are indeed furries, but they are not a furry group.
2
They're a security organization for fandom based conventions. Many cons use them for security so con staff can focus on running the con and have less liability when there's security issues. Because of how tame furcons are the Dorsai have a tendency to use them to train new recruits. This obviously caused problems on more then one occasion which is where folks have problems with them. I've personally only ever had a problem with them once and Sgt. Steve took care of it as it was a situation that involved a new recruit in training. From personal experience I've found them to generally be very polite and usually go unnoticed until I walk past con-ops/security-ops.
Tbh, Dragoneer and crew have always been very vocal in disliking private security handling con security and I've seen them gloat about their passive aggressive defiance/antagonizing of the Dorsai at both FurFright and Anthrocon. Their attitude has caused some friction between them and the Dorsai so complaints like this are expected at every con they go to. I'd take everything about this with a grain of salt.
-1
The abuses of the Dorsai go beyond Dragoneer. They are verbally and physically abusive to attendees, I have personally experienced this and witnessed them doing it to other completely unrelated parties.
It's almost a shame that Dragoneer's name is even mentioned here, because people like you are willing to discredit the story just because he is involved.
Make no mistake, this is a years-long pattern of abuse, and has nothing to do with Dragoneer. The hundreds of comments on his journal are evidence enough of that. But personally, I don't even need that, as I've seen it all with my own eyes.
It is disgusting that you will give credit to so-called "security" people who are willing to physically assault congoers just because you don't like the person who is pointing it out.
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I don't think I've had any real run-ins with the Dorsai, aside from one time at Anthrocon when one of them rather forcefully told me to put away an unlit cigarette I'd been carrying behind my ear. They definitely give off a vibe like they're just waiting for an excuse to get rowdy and/or act like cops though.
7
I just passed this on to the director of MFM as a shining example of what we don't want in security staff.
7
Kind of ironic that a FA admin is complaining about abuse of power.
Regardless, something really should be done about this.
7
Since when has his abuse of power gotten physical? Oh right, it hasn't.
0
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6
The Dorsai sound like a bunch of roided-up bouncers. These reports have really turned me off of some US Cons. :/
5
They aren't even...they're old fat men, or unfortunate nerds who act like this to make themselves feel better about their own shit lives.
6
There are a lot of really good US cons... The Dorsai don't run security for all of them.
5
I've been to MFF and had a blast last year! :) I think if I go to the US for another con I would double check first and see if they do security at said con.
2
Thank you! As an MFF staff member, I have to say I've always been impressed by how well our people have their shit together. Several years back there were some complaints starting about draconian security, and guess what... Security changed.
We try our damnedest to strike the responsible balance between keeping ruckus at bay, but also not turning into enforcement thugs.
3
Not the first time Dragoneer has had run-ins with the Dorsai at Furfright. Makes me wonder if he gets singled out for harassment by them because of a pre-existing antagonistic relationship.
5
On the one hand, I'm sure they do single him out. They also welcomed into their group a member who has a years-old vendetta against Dragoneer, and I'm certain that influences this.
However the Dorsai have no idea who I am, and they had no problem harassing and abusing me. And the guy who Renegade assaulted at the FurSuit parade who was just trying to take a picture? Or the people who were potentially put in danger by the Dorsai removing hallway lights?
Or literally every person in the hotel who was put in danger by the Dorsai's incompetent response to the fire alarm, where they failed to help evacuate until attendees had already started directing the crowd for them, then the Dorsai directed people to the wrong area, had to move the crowd multiple times, and decided that the best way to direct the crowd is by barking commands like "let's move!" and "come on, hustle!"
Don't discount this as a personal Dorsai v. Dragoneer issue. It's not. There are already 91 signatures on the Change.org petition - they can't all be Dragoneer and personal friends.
7
Sorry, I don't mean to imply that the harassment isn't real. I've never been hassled by them myself, but they've always struck me as rather brusque and out-of-place at furry cons. I don't really understand why they do security for furries when so few of them are furries themselves.
Perhaps their style goes over better at more impersonal, commercially-oriented sci-fi cons.
6
I would say that "brusque and out-of-place" is what I would call them if I wanted to be kind. Literally the best thing I could say about them.
The really amusing part, to me, is that the story of how the Dorsai Irregulars began shows that they have become the very thing they hate. In their own words:
At Torcon 2, the 31st World Science Fiction Convention (or "WorldCon"), held in 1973 in Toronto, the only security force was hired security guards. There was friction between the guards and the fans. The guards did not understand the fannish milieu. ...
Robert Asprin realized the need for a corps of experienced fans who could provide security, crowd control, guest escort and other services to conventions, and with knowledge of the norms and customs of fandom, could, in theory, provide these services without the hostility and conflict caused by a clash of cultures between the mundane world and the fannish.
Now at FurFright and Anthrocon, the only security force is the Dorsai Irregulars. There is friction between the guards and the fans. The Dosai do not understand the fannish milieu.
There is a need for a corps of experienced fans who can provide security, crowd control, guest escort and other services to furry conventions, and with knowledge of the norms and customs of teh furry fandom, could, in theory, provide these services without the hostility and conflict caused by a clash of cultures between the mundane world and the fannish.
2
I'd be happy to attend any and all security trainings prior to any con I would act as security and provide that proof before any shift. I haven't before but I would.
2
The Dorsai have been an issue for years. This is nothing new, but I'm so glad people are starting to fight back. I slightly aggressively hugged a friend, in a playful/fun way. A dorksi freaked out and pulled us apart and was all bitchy to us. It was just silly. No hugging at fur-cons guys!
Avoid FCN, AC, and Fur Fright and you should be alright. Hell the Dorsi are drunk half the cons anyway!
I hope the AC board starts to re-consider their "security" soon (Also, don't push it on Kage...he doesn't really "run" anthrocon...he's just the face at the con.) I suggest we all stand up and turn around when they Dorsai are introduced at Anthrocon, and don't clap or aknowledge them. Also, you can throw away your nazi wrist bands from this years con and stop wearing the Dorsi ear tags too.
5
Reddit needs a r/BadDorsaiNoDonut. We have a subreddit for that regarding improper behaviors by actual police, no reason a public name and shame for people in that group that act beyond the bounds of what their position should allow wouldn't work.
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4
Lawyer Up!
2
I have always enjoyed many of the Dorsai's company. Though, I do think that they are in need of an overhaul in how they handle people. Through security and all things in need of protection, showing courtesy for those you are there to "wrangle" or assist goes both ways. I have also enjoyed the thought of having a centralized group of people who handled security, thus letting the general con staff go to other places. Also, they are a group that specifically handles sci-fi and even furry events... which should mean that they are also tolerable of many things within those subcultures.
Again, I approve of many people within the Dorsai, but not these jerks.
TLDR; they need assistance to overhaul the Dorsai internally. This should be a plea for them, as nerds as well, to fix their shit or they will be tossed out on the doorstep. Sad.
2
I'm almost surprised that someone hasn't flipped shit over them. I know I would have chopped ass.
1
Ninja kick.
1
While I don't necessarily disagree based on the reports I'm hearing/seeing, I just want to put in my two cents. I've been to two Anthrocons, and have never had a negative issue with the Dorsai. I've been approached by them when we were clearly standing in the way of the door, and if you actually LISTEN to them and comply instead of questioning them, they're very polite.
Now, I'm not saying they don't overstep their bounds. This is only my personal experience. Regarding standing "near" a doorway, look at it this way. If one fur is standing five feet from the door, someone else may join him to talk. Soon, a few more furs stand close by because it seems okay, and suddenly you have a crowd blocking the doorway because people are standing around. I've witnessed it several times at AC in the Westin's lobby.
Don't just jump on the bandwagon and assume that the Dorsai are entirely in the wrong here. If a police office approached you and said "Hey, we need you to move," what do you think is going to happen if you say "Why?" People that are placed in a position of responsibility, especially security and crowd control, expect people to react reasonably when they make a request.
Do the Dorsai need to be reformed? Clearly. There are obviously some problems, given that certain individuals have clearly overstepped legal bounds, even.
Do I think the Dorsai need to be eliminated entirely? Absolutely not. If they go away, then when? Anthrocon, FurFright, etc have to turn to volunteers, other organizations, what have you to pick up the slack. Who would you rather have watching your back? A group of volunteers who have absolutely NO idea what they're doing, how to handle crowds, how to properly handle difficult situations, or would you rather have an organization dedicated to doing exactly that?
And why don't we take a step farther here? Who would you RATHER have performing security at a con? Dorsai, or the local police force? because I can promise you the police aren't going to deal with your shit if you decide to mouth off to them.
-3
Edit: If you've had similar experiences with the Dorsai, please sign the petition at Change.org asking Belic and FurFright to remove the Dorsai.
I know a lot of people here won't listen to anything Dragoneer says, so here's my account of what I personally dealt with:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3971538/
Highlights:
There are many other stories of Dorsai abuse in the comments on Dragoneer's journal, so even if you don't trust him, perhaps you'll trust the hundreds of other people with similar stories.
The Dorsai have been a problem for years. Their culture is one that seems to foster this sort of behavior. This is not the first time there have been wide-spread problems at a con which they are working.
I don't understand why, with dozens of well-attended cons (FA:U, FWA, FC, TFF, and RF just to name a few) across the country that are Dorsai-free, people still continue to attend conventions where they provide security. I personally will never attend a con where they are providing security. I just don't want to deal with the potential hassle.
If all these stories and outrage are legitimate (and, to be clear, I have no reason to believe that they aren't), then the only way anybody in a position of power to do anything about this is if con attendance begins to suffer because of it. Quit complaining and organize a boycott...
It shouldn't be a difficult thing for someone who has the platform, in the community, that Dragoneer does...
Organize a boycott? Hard to do against a security organization used by at least four furry conventions. I think spreading the stories of their behavior and pressuring the conventions to respond is the best way to achieve that goal. The stories have already scared a lot of people off of FurFright. Don't need to say the word "boycott" to get the same effect.
I, too, will never (again) attend a convention where they provide security, as security cannot be had in their presence. I forgot to mention above, they also utterly failed in handling the fire alarm. Attendees started ushering people out of the lobby because nobody else was!
It's a real shame because I've always liked FurFright and I know Belic is a good person. I was also just about convinced that the drive to FCN would be worth it. Not anymore.
4 cons out of how many? There are a lot of cons that don't use them. I listed just a few above. Why not visit one of them?
Furries seem to like to complain a lot, but when it comes down to actually doing anything about it... Well, seems like they'd rather just complain. Complaining on the internet isn't going to do anything. It hasn't accomplished anything in the past... In time people will forget, until the same exact thing happens next year. Then the community will get all up in arms like it's the first time. If you really want to do something about it, start a boycott... Circulate a petition. Bitching and empty threats won't accomplish anything.
Besides FAU, FurFright and Anthrocon are the closest to me. I'm upset that because of the Dorsai, I either need to travel hundreds of miles further to go to conventions, or give up two of my three "local" cons.
I might visit other cons, but that's ignoring the point.
What do you suppose the difference is between hundreds of people saying "the Dorsai have ruined FurFright and I will not go," and a boycott?
Here's a petition on change.org for whatever that's worth, you could just as easily call that "complaining on the internet" though: http://www.change.org/petitions/belic-bear-and-furfright-inc-discontinue-the-use-of-dorsai-irregulars-as-a-security-force-at-furfright
So the best way for Furries to deal with this situation is through spreading stories and getting indignant?
Well if there were any task Furries were best suited for...
Outside of FA, I don't have a platform, nor do I have a voice of or for the community. I don't believe it's my place to organize or even encourage a boycott. I voiced myself as an attendee. The community has to want it, and when they do, bring that "want" to the convention's attention.
People need to speak out and make sure they're heard. That's what I did, and I did at the encouragement of multiple Furfright staffers. I knew going in that the post would have a lot of people for and against it, but given all the people who were harassed, I saw harassed, and were with me when it happened, I felt the need it was time to finally stand my ground.
Security should NEVER threaten to have someone arrested for simple standing too close to a door, never so much as touch an attendee, block them from entering the rooms they've paid for (or even CARE what they do behind the privacy of their own rooms) or half of what went down.
And let me be honest and open when I say this: I've not always been on the best footing on speaking out. I've handled it poorly in the past, and sometimes completely inappropriately (see Lupine Assassin, Chewfox, Foxmas, sharing private comments and more). I deserve the hits I've taken from those actions.
So I'm well aware of what could happen were I speak out on this, but I felt I had to. I couldn't keep quiet on it further.
That's exactly what I meant. You have the megaphone of... I don't know if you want to call it FA or popularity or what... But you have loud voice that can get the word out (and, even though you may not want to admit it, you do have a leading voice in this fandom, if you chose to exercise it). I may not agree with everything you do, but I think in this case you handled the situation the right way and I 100% agree with your reasoning.
I'll grant that perhaps "boycott" is too harsh a term, but I think that craywolf has the exactly right idea with his petition (I'm glad to see that you added a link to it to your original journal entry).
The community needs to know that it has a voice, and that voice can be heard.
The organizers of these conventions need to know that there is a problem, and be given an opportunity to solve it.
The Dorsai need to know that they have an issue, and they need to do a better job of policing their own. They should be given that chance, and if they can't do that then they should be removed.
Most of my frustration comes from the fact that this seems to come up year after year after year and, like a lot of things in the fandom, it's very easy for people to make a lot of noise and complain about it, but nobody seems to have any interest in taking the initiative to come up with a solution.
I want to speak up, but I feel that if I do more than what it may be taken as me campaigning against the conventions, and that's not what I want. The conventions are great. Furfright 06' exists to today as one of the most legendary conventions I've ever attended, and they've been consistently good, if not better since. Except... for the Dorsai. I have NOTHING against the conventions. Hell, we sacrificed a lot to get to FF this year, so trust me, I /wanted/ this con to work. This weekend was important to us for a number of reasons, but something happened. What I don't know, but it definitely happened.
The main issue with the Dorsai is that it's all in the approach. How you approach and handle a situation changes the outcome dramatically. And, from my experience being on staff at multiple conventions, it's even more important at cons where alcohol and drugs are often a factor in an attendee ultimately responds to you. With the DI, except for one (an Asian fellow who was at FF this year) I never get "Excuse me, but we're trying to this area clear for the flow of traffic. Would you mind stepping to the side just a bit, or maybe consider the zoo?" What I get generally goes along the lines of "You're not allowed to stand there. You need to move, NOW."
I want this resolved, but I don't see it happening. I've been reporting the issues for years now, and I thank God this year there were multiple staffers around me when it happened this year. But this was the fifth year something has happened. I'm not sure how many times I have to make a legitimate complaint before something gets done, or it ends up to the point it becomes "Dragoneer's just crying wolf." I really don't want. But I had to stand my ground and say what I had to say. The Dorsai are the issue, NOT the convention, NOt the convention staff, but at the same time, the convention hasn't done anything about it. So... I don't know what else to really say on the matter. People are coming forward. A lot of them, and it's only been a day and a half.
I got on my soap box, said what I had to say, and I'll leave it there. I made my statement, and people will pick up on it. Some will be pissed, some will sympathize, many will relate to it (as evidenced in my journal's comments) an some will deny it. And maybe it will have an effect, maybe it won't.
The only solution is to tell the conventions "I wan t to go to your con, but not if the Dorsai are listed as security." and encourage them to change. People will need to take the initiative. I don't know who created the petition, but I can only imagine it was somebody else finally fed up by what happened this year.
This kills the con.
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