Monument Circle, Georgia Street going (partially) car-free
axios.com/local/indianapolis/2023/06/07/downt...
axios.comPosted Jun 7, 2023, 11:18 AM UTC
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axios.comStuck inside this article is the note that Hendricks Commercial Properties who did the Bottleworks district is in negotiations to redo circle centre mall. That’d be huge if they got it because they did a great job with Bottleworks
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That would be very interesting, but there was just an article recently about the problem with redoing Circle Center. Iirc, it’s basically a lot of owners to get to agree to something, and the place is still profitable, despite how empty it feels, so it’s even harder to get them to make a big change.
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It's still profitable because many of the tenants left their leases early, but still pay the rent. I'm not sure how many years some of those leases have left, but it's going to stop being profitable in a fairly short timeframe.
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More of this Indy!
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Downtown Indianapolis has some beautiful urban parks, monuments, and pedestrian districts. The City does a shit job of programming these areas. This is a great step in the right direction.
After COVID, it became clear to everybody that the very center of Downtown is was over-leveraged in office space land use. This was true before COVID. Aside from tourists coming to see Monument Circle, the area died after 5pm on weekdays. Meanwhile, places like South Meridian and Mass Ave had much more mixed use space, and are still busy as ever today.
After a few more conversions of office buildings to mixed-use buildings with hotels & apartments & good steps in the right direction towards programming, the core of Downtown should be in great shape as a mixed-use district, just like Mass Ave, Virginia Ave, South Meridian, etc.
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Aaron Freeman is getting hard just thinking about legislating against this...
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Cars go vroom vroom, I like cars, Ray Skillman gives me cars, I like fast. People aren’t cars. Ew!
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The good news is that Aaron Freeman is only one man and only has so much time and capacity to micromanage the city. He also only has so much political capital to spend at the statehouse to try and get his buddies to put up with the time it takes to get his legislation past the hurdles put up by the Indy Democrat reps and senators.
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I can’t believe this is all finally happening.
I just started reading the book Happy City by Charles Montgomery, it’s all about this. I’m loving what I’m seeing. Public plazas = better community and better health. Thank you, Indy!
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I've added that book to my reading list, thank you.
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Great book. A lot of it is kinda like, “well of course!” but it’s good to be reminded of how backwards we think about cities. It is very fair in its analysis of the issues with cities, and how to improve them. Overall, it does not look kindly on suburbia. Very easy read as well.
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How much foot traffic do they anticipate on Georgia street? I work right near there and walk it almost everyday. Outside of special events, it's empty. Except for the homeless people over by St. John's.
Tbh it barely gets any car usage either tho. Maybe when the pan am plaza stuff gets done it will be better. I feel like that street in general has a lot of wasted potential.
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There is a shitton of foot traffic on Georgia Street when we host big enough events that they flow out of the convention center, which happens a few times a year. Those are also the only times that Georgia Street is properly programmed.
There are a ton of residents nearby, so if Georgia Street taken advantage of and given resident-focused programming year-round, people will use it year-round.
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That area feels like an alley to me when there isn’t an event. It had high walls and very little activation at street level. The restaurants always feel empty and detached from the street; I’ve always assumed they only make money during conventions.
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The problem with their plan for it (imo) is that it's already very pedestrian friendly and easily walkable, yet it gets no traffic. Their mockup shows all these shops and restaurants, and storefronts. But those don't exist right now.
The south side of Georgia is a mess. You have that vacant warehouse at Pennsylvania, the Pan Am mess and honestly Kilroys faces meridian so you're not getting any storefront there.
There's current renovation plans, obviously the signa hotel and Simon is trying to build on that warehouse. So maybe it gets better. I just think they have a long way to go to revitalizing Georgia St before we even think about making it pedestrian only. Need way more foot traffic than they have right now.
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All good points, but in the other hand, I almost never see cars use it either. Maybe there’s a garage that empties onto Georgia near where Burger Study was? It’s not going to be as controversial to convert to pedestrian only, when it’s already shut down for events and it’s not a vital throughway for cars.
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The Moon (I think) garage for Circle Center has it's entrance/exit on Georgia. I'd like to see that stretch go to a single one way lane (even as the city moves away from one ways downtown) to get traffic in and out of the garage while the rest of the street can be pedestrian friendly.
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It won't be a big deal for car traffic but are they gonna make the meridian intersection pedestrian only? That would be the only thing that would get pushback.
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Agreed with all this. The first thought I had when they said they were going to make Georgia more pedestrian friendly was confusion. There are many other streets that could use pedestrian funds. Georgia already is pedestrian friendly. But there is nothing do really do there is the problem.
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They could allow pop-up vendors in the middle area and then have pedestrians on the road sides. Lots of potential for small businesses
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The renderings are awesome. It would have been great if the spaces there had more presence toward Georgia Street, but they don't. Right now, it's such a waste. Hopefully this turns it around.
The potential is a lot like the canal. Great ideas, but limited to no execution.
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Problem with the renderings is where are they getting the storefront? The warehouse is turning into apartments, Kilroys side takes up half a block and the Pan Am new hotel and Omni will take up basically the rest of the south side.
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It's important that this area gets heavily used, visibly heavily used, and that city council and the mayor's office hear about it being good (if it's good, which i'm assuming). I work downtown and will be trying to see if people want to take lunch meetings there, recommending the spot to friends, etc.
That's the first step in ensuring a program like this stays and expands.
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This, it’s has to be seen as being supported by the public. This is the most traction for shutting down the circle ever. We need to support it!
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Well, this sounds awesome. I hope it’s successful so we can get more areas like this around downtown
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I've spent a few months in France the past year, and it's wild how much of a difference areas like this make.
I've loved indy since I move here over a decade ago, but I never appreciated just how disconnected it feels compared to the towns that focused on pedestrian access over car access. I used to be of the mindset that making it easier for cars makes it easier for people, but seeing how a pedestrian focused city works while not being able to drive for a month at a time has absolutely changed my mind.
I'm not sure if Georgia is going to be the best spot, but it's at least a start. When it's properly built out with things to do (shops to visit, restaurants to eat at), the rendering is pretty close to the truth. Even just a normal week day evening, the energy is incredible. I'm hoping we see that come through with the Circle experiment.
Good job indy, I hope this is a successful test 😁
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Yeah traveling overseas really opens your eyes to this. Unfortunately there's one massive missing ingredient here in Indy: good public transportation to and from these areas.
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Exactly this. The key to having more pedestrian friendly areas is having good public transit. Indy doesn’t have that, unfortunately.
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And likely never will unfortunately
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I love this. I posted on a thread a few weeks ago asking what Indy was missing, and this was my answer. Other cities have these pedestrian corridors and they always seem to work well.
My only concern is Indiana weather. These spaces aren't sustainable during an Indiana winter and would be unused.
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Georgia Street has outdoor heaters. The problem is that The City never uses them. But The City never does anything for residents on Georgia Street anyway. I've only seen the heaters used in the Super Bowl Village back in 2012...
The City got authorization from The State to fund constant programming and maintenance of Downtown plazas this year. Redesign + programming = solid.
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From the way the article talks about it returning earlier next year, it sounds like they plan to take it down over the winter, but unless I missed it, it doesn’t say when that will happen. I assume late fall?
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I think it said October.
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I don't think the weather is too big of an issue. It's just that there's very little actually on Georgia Street. Like the entirety of the south side is practically empty. I was just in Cincy at a Reds game and the block just outside the ballpark is closed to cars. There are several restaurants and bars and you can even carry around drinks outside. It was absolutely packed after the game. We could definitely have something like that in the block outside of the Fieldhouse especially with the new Pacers plaza going in.
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could they also ban those lame motorcyclists from just hanging out blasting music and their engines on the circle all nights of the week when the weather is nice? It is super annoying. I've never understood why they go there.
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I think it's because the buildings' resonance makes them sound louder. They really wanna be seen
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Ive never seen someone actually pay them any attention.
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which is the ironic, sad part
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This sounds great and opens up more space to enjoy Downtown. NGL I loved when Mass Ave was closed to cars. It really opened up the street nicely to enjoy eating outside.
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The southwest portion of Monument Circle — in front of the Emmis Communications building and South Bend Chocolate Co. — will close July 8 and become a miniature park with plans for a bar, beer garden, listening booth and public restrooms.
City officials tell Axios they plan to watch how people use the pedestrian-only area to help guide the future of Monument Circle, a hot debate in which urbanists and motorists are at odds.
The Monument Circle and Georgia Street projects stem from an effort the city launched last year — dubbed the Downtown Resiliency Strategy — to solicit feedback on best uses for downtown.
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I think it would be better for the entire circle to be pedestrian only. As it stands, it's poor for drivers and poor for pedestrians. The monument is an important part of our city and should be treated as such.
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I gotta say, this is fuckin awesome.
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Meh. It was a slow, crowded, crummy route by car anyway. No reason to actually drive around the circle unless forced to by street closures.
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So excited for this development.
Between this and the no more right turns on red news it’s been a great week for downtown.
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I think this could be nice for tourists even. I can't tell y'all how many times I've been sitting on the steps to the monument on a nice day and see someone park their car in an illegal parking spot, throw their hazards on, hop out just to take a picture, then hop back in and pull off.
Hopefully this comes with some nearby cheap parking for tourists and can convince some people to grab a tea or coffee and spend some time downtown instead of just grabbing a picture and dipping.
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I remember when Georgia St was just a place to get stabbed when you made the mistake of going to Hot Box after leaving the bars. Now it’s fancy.
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I can't wait to hang out in the Monument Circle space while being deafened by revving motorcycles and loud bass coming from Dodge Chargers.
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we need better sound ordinances (or just better enforcement, idk)
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It's a lack of enforcement issue. I saw a car yesterday with a bright green mirror tinted windshield.
IMPD has just given up enforcing laws, apparently.
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The ordinance is there, they just don't enforce anything. Maybe it's because they have to respond to so many shootings and violent crime but idk.
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I know it’s a logistical nightmare but them closing off the street of mass ave during the height of Covid was pretty amazing. I wish they would do it a couple times a year
It wasn't a logistical nightmare but a contractual one. Since the last mayor sold parking enforcement to a private company, the city is contractually obligated to ensure literal traffic to a private company.
I get irrationally angry about this. It was the stupidest possible thing to do. I don’t recall what can/can’t happen with regard to removing parking spaces.
If they outright remove parking spaces they have to pay out a penalty based on the expected revenue of the meter for the full remaining lifetime of the contract.
If they relocate the meter to a different street they have to pay out based on the expected difference in revenue between the two streets.
Mass Ave is one of the streets that would expect the highest revenue from meters so it's very expensive even to just relocate the meters.
Edit: here's an IndyStar article that goes over the situation with ParkIndy and the estimated costs of closing streets to vehicles: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/transportation/2020/09/21/indianapolis-parking-meters-contract-difficult-road-closures-mass-ave/5481619002/
Mass Ave is a huge, huge money maker for the parking meter company. Not only do they have good turnover on the spots, it's also a great spot for them to issue tickets.
How long’s the contract for that?
Same. It seriously infuriates me that I have to pay some assholes out of state for the privilege to navigate my own city. They provide absolutely nothing to this city except a couple of low-paying parking enforcement jobs and a siphon of wealth from here to there.
Literally fuck them.
Parking enforcement is also pretty much a joke. A parking ticket is small enough that I have literally chosen to get one rather than pay for event parking before
I don't think it was that much of a logistical nightmare though. Mass Ave barely functions as a thru street. It's the exact sort of street you'd expect going car free to be successful.
Mass Ave probably couldn’t happen due to the amount of deliveries for all the businesses. It was awesome during the pandemic though.
I think some areas in Europe go car free during the day (so like 7AM to 9PM or whatever) and then allow deliveries late at night. Seems like that could be an option here.
the deliveries thing seems like the easiest thing in the world to address. you can make it car-free with retractable bollards, which would make deliveries easier because you don't have to contend with car traffic! and no cars annoyed behind you as you try to make your deliveries
People mentioned this above, but it's less about the logistics and more about the contractual costs the city would have to pay to ParkIndy if they removed these parking spaces.
It would be amazing for the community. Pearl Street in Boulder CO is a good model.
bouldercolorado.gov
When Mass Ave was closed down it was amazing! It was so vibrant. Now that there are enough parking garages around the area it wouldn’t be a bad idea to take a look at making that permanent.
It’s barely a street anymore, more of a parking lot.
Same with Broad Ripple Ave. However, as a Door Dash driver, it was a logistical nightmare.
Ah didn’t think about that. Strange though, any place on Mass Ave to me is a show up and stay type of place. People have their preferences but nothing there ever strikes me as “I need it now, delivered!”
Yeah also we shouldn’t care. If deliveries stop and the restaurants are still fine or doing better because it’s car free, who gives a fuck about door dashing? Professional courier service is like the least profitable thing in the world
Petra is great for delivery, that's the only one on Mass for me.