Ladies and Gents, I'm a paramedic and just ran a guy into the ER that I'm about 50/50 on him having nicotine poisoning. Was mixing juice earlier.
Be careful of what you're doing everyone and stay safe.
Posted Aug 15, 2013, 3:17 AM UTC
Thanks for giving the vape community a heads up, it's definitely needed.
I've overdosed on nicotine before and it isn't fun. my left ear started ringing and my entire body felt like it was 2 tons. I went to the bathroom and I collapsed and passed out for a second. This was after a particularly long hookah session though and not vape related. Still, not a fun thing to experience. Watch out though fellow vapers, nicotine can be pretty dangerous in high doses if you aren't careful.
If you were using instalight coals, or improperly lit charcoal ones, this is most likely the culprit here and not the nicotine.
could you please explain why?
inhaling the gunpowder, or the charcoal itself.
Nope. I only use naturals. And no, they were fully lit.
I had this same thing happen after an intense hookah session. Fortunately I didnt passout and was able to make the drive home safely. I assumed it was just too much nicotine. Im a little fuzzy on this though, is nicotine easily absorbed through skin contact or something? And is it potentially life threatening to have too much nicotine?
Trust me, it's absorbed pretty easily. I had a plastic bottle of juice with barely any left her punctured in my pocket. All of a sudden, I felt dizzy and nauseated and a strong desire to get as far away from my ecig as possible. It wasn't even enough to notice my pants were wet, but I vape 24mg juices, so it was enough to get into my bloodstream and fuck me up for a couple of hours.
Wow I never would have guessed that it could be absorbed so quickly like that.
This is how the nicotine patch works. I too have had a bottle with the cap not all the way on in my pocket 36mg juice too. My symptoms were intense nausea and hiccups, yes hiccups are a well documented symptom of too much nicotine. I washed it off and after about 10 queasy minutes I was fine. No vomiting here, however I attribute that to use of my cannabis vaporizer ;)
To be fair, I have no idea how long it had been punctured before I started to feel the effects.
That's how nicotine patches work.
It is very easily absorbed through the skin, and in large amounts is fatal. If i remember correctly from an article, the largest cases of nicotine poisoning is from farmers (nicotine is used as a pesticide).
I know it can be absorbed through the skin, but I don't know how easily.
I can't answer your other questions though, sorry.
thats crazy, I've sat around a hookah for hours and never seen anyone have any kind of problem with it. I dont even feel any kind of buzz from smoking a hookah.
I normally dont either, usually just get a light buzz going depending on the mix we use. But one night we went to a hookah bar and sat around for 5 hours, and the guy put together his "buzz mix" and had 2 coals on there. It was an intense head pain, and nausea with dizziness. . Almost like I was drunk and needed to vomit. Very strange situation.
Haha, this happened to me when I was younger. Three of my friends and I smoked 3 - 4 bowls of Nakhla in a very short amount of time and then drove to one of their houses.
My friend's dad was having a party at the time, and we were all standing around the pool table just chilling when I suddenly had an incredibly strong urge to sit down, accompanied by ringing ears and tunnel vision. I sort of squat-fell to the ground and everyone in the room stopped what they were doing and stared at me. I managed to mumble something like "I'm dizzy." My friend's dad gave him (his son) a very dirty and accusative look and my friend swore that we hadn't done anything else besides smoke hookah. /cringe
Needless to say I cut way down after that and am mindful of that experience when I'm using my vape as well.
I'm sorry that happened, but this is what happens when you don't mix safely. You can't mess around with this stuff. Wear gloves when using nic juice to mix with your flavors. I hope the guy is going to be ok.
If it is nicotine I think he'll be ok. As an aside out of everyone who dealt with this guy right up to me transferring him to the ER no one even knew what vaping was aside from me for the most part. Not at the level we do it at anyway. So if you have to deal with healthcare expect to answer questions and possibly they will be insulting ones.
expect to answer questions and possibly they will be insulting ones.
What kind of insulting questions might they ask? Assuming a narcotics overdose perhaps?
"so you were drinking pesticides?"
shit like that
Nicotine abuse?
That would be insulting.
They def wouldn't assume narcs. They might think narc or alcohol withdrawal if there are other reasons to go that route. They are much more likely to react in general as though you are doing something illicit and stupid than an accepted thing. A stupid fad that is dangerous, type thing. Not everyone but you could see attitudes like that. If we see empty bottles and know what they are they're likely going to think you vaped or drank the whole amount if symptoms match up. So people will have no idea what vaping is and will mistake a vape for drug paraphernalia.
A kitted out mixing station could look mighty odd if you didn't know what it was.
And I can only imagine what you guys see sometimes. I would think it would be hard not to assume something illicit and/or stupid. It's not like the DiY thing is common knowledge.
Gloves and eye protection are mandatory when using high concentrations of nicotine.
New vaper here. So should I be way more concerned than I have been when I get a bit of juice on my lips, especially right after adding juice to my atomizer?? It doesn't happen that often and I haven't experienced any weirdness from it.
I wouldn't concern yourself about just getting a little on your lips from normal vaping. If you spill some on yourself, wash it off though. The main concern here is for people mixing their own juices who have to handle higher nic concentrations to mix in their juices.
Thanks!
I am knew as well, and this concerns me. I have some clearos and a couple Ego-Ts, and vape 18mg from only one place Good Life Vapor. Should I worry about having my bottles out? Should I lock them up? Plus, I am getting that I should never get any on my skin, is this a correct assumption?
If you have any children or animals around that could get your bottles, I would definitely suggest getting them out of reach. The concentration needed to be poisonous is directly related to their size. Ingesting even a few ml of liquid could be lethal.
As an adult dealing with 18 mg/ml, I wouldn't worry about spilling it on you unless it's a significant amount. Just wipe it off and wash the area and you should be fine. Most of the nicotine will not absorb through the skin unless it's left on for a while.
Thanks for all the information! I will be locking it all up for sure now. Thank you again!
I wouldn't be all that concerned with just a little of a normal vaping concentration lip contact.
If you spilled a fair bit on your hands or something I would wash immediately and if you were mixing high concentration nic I would definitely wash very well right away.
Also I wouldn't accept juice from someone you don't trust not to be stupid about it.
This happened to someone working with pure concentrated nicotine. No worries necessary for premixed juice.
Exactly why I will always just buy premixed bottles from vendors instead of trying to do it myself.
Even then make sure you vet them. This guy's top 3 when I asked were.
If you're gonna buy juice from a kiosk in the middle of the mall, you're gonna have a bad time.
drug themed named pizza joint
So, it's called The Pizza Joint?
Also, what? This guys top three what?
My guess would be the Mellow Mushroom
[deleted]
Nah, but I'm not saying the name because it would be a really obvious giveaway as to the region and city.
Nashville?
I bought glass bottles with piercable lids for my nicotine solution.
Please keep us updated. When do you know that it's time to call yall for something like this btw?
Nicotine poisoning is biphasic in nature, meaning it has two phases, the first is the stimulant phase, when the nicotine is bound to the receptor sites. This is where you'll get the dizziness, headaches, nausea/vomiting, tachycardia, sweating and at worst seizures. Then as the nicotine is absorbed and processed by the body it enters the second phase where you get the opposite problems, bradycardia, unconsciousness and potentially respiratory failure. So, my suggestion is that if you start having a very elevated heart rate, and nausea/vomiting, that's when it would be time to call an ambulance. If you just have the light headed feeling and a headache, drink plenty of fluids, and lay off the vape for a few hours, and if it gets worse, call 911.
Ways to stay safe, especially mixing juices would be to wear rubber gloves, work in a well ventilated area and always wash your hands after handling the nicotine.
Well if you were very positive you had a dangerous exposure I would say immediately. If you're not sure I'd say if you're seeing symptoms. Bear in mind it would be really hard to overdose on just vape. I would suspect it would take prolonged contact with juice or a good spill that wasn't handled properly.
For those who dont know or even just to remind those that do that it only takes 40mg of nicotine for it to start approaching a lethal dosage. Absorbing concentrated amounts through the skin is not hard to forget.
Source?
Most numbers I've read are closer to 120mg, and that's for a non-smoker. A smoker (er, I mean nic user) can tolerate more.
I'm on my phone, but Wikipedia lists LD50 (the amount that would kill half the population) is 0.5-1.0 mg/kg.
80 kg is about 170 lb. At 0.5 mg/kg, that's 40 mg. Or it could take 80 mg...everyone's different.
For a fatty like me, at 220, it would take 50-100 mg.
So, let's talk volumes for a second.
40mg would be the low end of the LD50. The strongest liquid Mt Baker sells is 36 mg/mL.
That means you would need approximately 1.1mL to approach the bottom of a "lethal" dose.
Here's a picture of 1mL of milk in a teaspoon
This means you would have to soak your finger in or drink that much "extra strong" juice and completely absorb it to be anywhere near that LD50.
Frankly, that's a lot. If you're just vaping, and not mixing your own juice, it's mostly unrealistic that you would receive anywhere near a lethal dose of nicotine just by filling your atomizers, unless you are an anorexic midget and you spilled it, say, up your nose.
Not that I'm not advising caution – naturally, clean up any that you get on your skin and observe proper precautions in your consumption – I just don't want people to get unreasonably terrified.
This is what I was told by the Poison Control Center person who answered my call. There are multiple variables such as age, body weight, current nicotine intake, and many others. However, it is best to be cautious on the side error and avoid the lowest known threshold just in case.
WOW!!! Hope he's going to be ok.
If I even get the smallest amount of mixed juice on my hands I worry and go wash them.
mixed juice isnt so much a worry as dealing with a pure nicotine solution. There's no way a bit of juice on your fingers is going to cause much of a reaction, the concentration is way too low. Pure nicotine though is pretty damn dangerous.
Yeah the pure stuff is definitely dangerous. Still, if I get it on me, I go wash my hands.
Better safe than sorry. Plus, that shit gets sticky.
Yep, it does..
Also, remember that nicotine is way more dangerous to non-smokers/vapers than to us who are nicotine-tolerant.
That's why I tell my girlfriend to stay clear of my mixing workbench.
I almost had to visit the e.r. for this very reason. Was mixing some juice using 100mg base, as I always do and spilled a little on my hand. A few minutes later I was sweating and it was getting harder to breath, then the nausea set in. I thought I was gonna die or something.. I just layed on the floor for about 20 minutes and slowly felt better. But ever since that time I'm super fucking careful with the stuff. I wear chemical resistant gloves and treat the nic like its plutonium.
I've gotten some gnarly nicotine shivers and nausea from a spill. dumped about 30ml on my leg while building a setup, didn't bother wiping right away, finished the build and felt like absolute crap in about 15minutes. HR was up, BP was up, extreme nausea and tremors. Since then I've decreased the amount of nicotine in my juices. 6mg is perfect especially when messing with rba's. Wear gloves when building. wipe your fill tips and bottles with alcohol.
How long was it between him mixing juice and calling for a box? What kind of s/s did he have?
Body aches, chest pain, tachycardia, shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, general twitchy behavior.
Hard to tell from his story. Anywhere from a few hours to an hour or so. If it was a spill it could have taken a while to absorb.
Sounds about right, or he was on drugs lol. All thought if it had been a few hours I would be less suspicious for nicotine since it absorbs transdermally pretty quick.
That would be what the other 50 of the 50/50 would be. I wasn't too sure on times but in my job you never can be because you don't necessarily get the truth. You kind of have to go with "Well, you say hours ago but you're showing the symptoms and I'm looking at empty bottles right here in arms reach." type thinking.
Haha oh I know, I was a fire medic for 7 years, work on the rotor wing now. We still get hair brained stories from nurses and even field medics on occasion lol. That's why I was curious about his symptoms, nicotine poisoning seems to be a good mimic for a lot of things.
There was a guy near my old place that got poisoned by nicotine-like pesticides a few years back, one of the EMTs that was called out is a colleague of mine. He said it was terrible...
Protective gear people! Wear it!
OP did he vape too much or did he accidentally swallow some juice?
It probably wasn't vaping that did it. If it was the nic it was in mixing the juice and a spill.
Like I said this dude had some issues so I'm like 50/50 on nic overdose. Could have been a few other things, but the signs and symptoms were there.
When I first started e-cig I used a blu disposable. I never smoked a lot in my life before. Maybe at most 2 packs in 2 years.
I started with a blu with 24MG. Jesus for someone who has accustomed to smoking this was a lot.
I vaped for at least 2 hours once constantly using the blu e-cig. Thankfully I at least kept hydrated during this vaping session. Otherwise I probably would have ended up much sicker. I was nauseous and light-headed. I puked about three times it was awful.
Wait...if e-juice (that has nicotine in it) touches your hands, it can be harmful? What?
Normal pre-mixed juice, very likely not. If you have a clearo leak a bunch in a pocket, and you don't notice for a while, you might absorb enough to get symptoms. A drop or two when you're filling your vape, nothing to worry about.
The biggest danger is mixing with high nicotine concentrations. I only mix from 48mg base for this reason, but some use higher. Gloves and eye protection are highly recommended when mixing.
Upvote for a fellow vaping medic! Haven't come across this kind of pt yet. I'm guessing nausea/vomiting, diaphoretic, maybe tachycardic?
What were his symptoms?
True words. I think it's easy to forget that nicotine is a poison. Besides mixing, it's just easy to vape way longer than you used to smoke because of the ease, which can lead to nicotine sickness way easier than you would expect. Happened to me once when i first started. Dropped down my nic content and never happened again.
I dropped from 18 to 12 and have been fine since. I'm on 6 now but still when I get some on my hands I wash it off immediately.
I don't think it's very dangerous for most people to get low concentration nicotine (up to around 24mg, i.e. most people's juice) on your skin. I often get 12mg juice on my skin and don't worry much about it -- apart from washing mainly as a precaution to not end up rubbing it in my eyes.
To wind up in ER you'd probably have to be mixing with 100mg base, or, obviously and much more dangerously, pure nicotine.
I'm very careful when I'm mixing down with my 100mg base, but for my post mix juice I don't worry very much about getting a bit on my skin every now and then.
100mg is the highest ill work with, even though I take precautions. When I'm ready tocrack a new bottle, first thing I do is dilute it to 50 mg, doubling the amount. I wear my homemade hazmat suit, long sleeves, a poncho, gloves, and a painters mask. That means I only work with 100mg once, instead of taking a bigger risk every time I mix. I also won't use bigger than 250ml bottles, of any ratio, while mixing.
I might seem paranoid, but I have a dependant. I'm not leaving her without a father because I'm stupid. I mix while she's at school, and it's locked up and hidden when I'm done.
I started at only 12 and still managed to get sick (ears ringing, nausea). Now I'm at 0-6 and still make sure to wash my hands and clean up spills (only concern with the 0mg is because i have cats and PG is poisonous to them)
Got a sampler in -> vaped every flavor -> projectile vomit.
Never again.
No no no, do I have to feel bad about VAPING ALL OVER MY CATS!!!
Oh, no, I've all but been blowing it in their faces for 3 years. Totally cool. But clean up spills if your juice has PG cause it can make them very ill.
I smoke the green stuff sometimes, and my wife's cat camps out on my lap when I'm at the computer most of the time. She bolts as soon as the lighter lights up because she hates the smoke.
I blew vapor in her face just to see what she'd do, and she flinched initially and had a puzzled look, but must have realized it was harmless or something because she just sits there in the cloud. Now she just ignores it altogether.
It must be a testament to the lack of nastiness of vapor versus smoke.
Wow, that's crazy. I vape 30-36mg/ml all day long, usually consuming 2-5ml/day. If some spills on me or gets in my mouth I don't even worry about it. This is mixed down from 60mg/ml liquid, and that I'm more careful with, but I don't feel like there's any need to wear ppe of any kind. I guess it comes down to what you're tolerant to.
Got some 18mg by mistake and its made me sick twice now. (Damn you Vapor Trails for making your juice irresistable). Nothing serious, but definite nausea and overall shit feeling. It's fun, but it can definitely go south real quick.