Fuck you Apple. It was totally OK when you dissed Microsoft Windows in your ads...
news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10288022-37.htmlPosted Jul 16, 2009, 1:33 AM UTC
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I'm not sure about all the "facts" thrown around in the article, but I think Microsoft is at least taking the right direction with their ads. Apple was pretty much just saying "buying a Mac will make you cool and socially accepted" which is a load of crap, but Microsoft is actually making a logical point, that a PC is generally cheaper than the overpriced macbooks.
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Plus it can run more software. I SO want to see an ad where they go shopping for software. Warehouses of PC software choices, vs one shelf for Mac software.
One of the funniest things when I go to BestBuy (Im sorry) and they try to sell me a Mac... I look around at all the PC software and ask them "so where's the Mac software?". Heh. Then some "cool" looking broad says "It comes with everything you'll ever need". Get out of my face.
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"It comes with everything you'll ever need"
My reply would have to be "Oh great, I was worried I'd have to buy a copy of Windows so I could play TF2 in a separate partition, but luckily that's all included."
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Girl: blink But watch what happens when you hit F11! Woahh
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command + option + shift + 8 or whatever is pretty cool though.
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The volume increases. So what?
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Haha, it's true girls are dumb! Also, the only reason anyone uses OS X is for the eyecandy.
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System Preferences opens?
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I need to go window-shopping for a computer sometime, just so I can do something similar. My needs, however, are primarily engineering analysis software packages. "Oh, great, the Mac comes with SolidWorks? Say, isn't SolidWorks Windows-only? Seeya."
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That's what gets me: to know that, no matter how hard Apple markets it, all of their engineering was likely done in Windows.
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As someone in the whatever-works camp, who prefers Linux at home, but works in a Windows world on the job, isn't it curious that MS still doesn't have a decent remote shell? I've been dealing with WinRM on Server 2003 bullshit all week. I've never really understood why the boys in Redmond put us through this. It's like they are always waiting for a 3rd party to tack it onto the stack. Well, they have, but not on Windows. Don't get me wrong, I'm more or less happy with whatever.
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I need to go window-shopping for a computer sometime, just so I can do something similar. My needs, however, are primarily engineering analysis software packages. "Oh, great, the Mac comes with SolidWorks? Say, isn't SolidWorks Windows-only? Seeya."
I thought about buying a Mac awhile ago, but opted for a PC* instead (cheaper to build myself, and could still go the hackintosh route if I really want OSX). Anyway, I went the PC route because every bit of software I would use is either available on both, or is Windows (and/or Windows and Linux) only. (Referring to 3D apps here)
What I am curious though, is whether or not Macs really do come with everything a "typical" user might need - web/email, word processing/related, etc. Seems to me, while making the general blanket statement to everyone "It comes with everything you need" is still wrong, it might actually be fitting in a lot of cases.
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AutoCAD is coming with a Mac version soon, and a lot of software companies that were Windows only are starting to get interested in Mac. As Apple is getting more popular, you'll see more software like these on OSX. I guess SolidWorks don't consider that market interesting right now...
BTW, if you love your Windows, good for you.
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You can run more than one operating system on the same box you know.
For instance I am writing this in safari, but I could reboot and be running ubuntu, or even windows XP (strictly for the drivers my friend)
Apple for fun, Linux for work, Windows only when someone requires it.
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Perhaps you would benefit from looking at this chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CAD_software
Oh, and have fun getting Solidworks to install on a different system when your PC dies.
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Playing CS source on an apple would be grounds for an e-Beating.
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Crossover, man. Crossover.
Wine, if you're cheap.
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Actually it comes with a program called "TextEdit". It does what it says.
As for the paint program, GIMP is free.
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I love how "it doesn't have MS Paint or anything like it!!!!" is considered a valid feature complaint. When was the last time you had to do something serious in Paint?
Seriously, if you want to crop/resize images, rotate them on their side, flip them, increase/decrease the brightness, contrast, hue/saturation, tint, black/white levels, sharpness... all of that is included in Preview.app, included. 99.9% of the genuinely useful things you can do with Paint, you can do with Preview. You can do a lot more photo-centric things with iPhoto which is typically on every Mac.
But no, you can't write 'PENIS' with a big aliased pixelated marker like in MS Paint.
If you want to do more but don't want to pay anything, GIMP runs, so does Seashore which is a little more friendly. Acorn and Photoshop Elements are both relatively inexpensive and work well.
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As much as I agree with and recognize the pov that there's a lot more Windows software, I'd like to bring up two small points to salt this thread with a little perspective:
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Mac market share on the internet has tripled in the last six years according to Netapp. That's including business users, so their place in the home market has probably increased a lot more than that. Even if you take exception to Netapp's methodology, there's no question that the popularity of Apple computers have skyrocketed since early 2004.
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The amount of software made for a target is closely related to the money there is in making it, and as Apple gains market share (which it seems to still be doing) more software makers will target it. And Apple users have already amply demonstrated their willingness to pay simply by owning Macs.
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Did you look at the boxed software on that Best Buy shelf? 90% of it is pure, utter shit. And the 10% that is worth a damn is far more likely to be cross platform.
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Did you look at the boxed software on that Best Buy shelf? 90% of it is pure, utter shit. And the 10% that is worth a damn is far more likely to be cross platform.
Semi off topic but that sounds exactly like the apple app store.
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Also, many times it's a different 90% to each buyer that is shit. BestBuy(like any retailer) saves shelf space by ditching stuff that doesn't sell.
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But now you are totally off topic because you are talking about a telephone and not a computer. Dimwit.
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Did you look at the boxed software on that Best Buy shelf? 90% of it is pure, utter shit. And the 10% that is worth a damn is far more likely to be cross platform.
Yeah, I think this is your strongest point. I've found very few programs I actually want that are not cross-platform.
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This. My first computer was a self-built Windows box, and after 5-6 years I replaced it with a Mac and have had zero trouble locating the same or equivalent programs for everything I need. The only exception is of course games, but that I expected. It really was amazingly easy.
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To contextualise a little further your statements, the great difference between Apple and Windows software is that there is far more complex, capital-intensive software available for Windows than there is for Mac (most of which consists of similar, reciprocally interchangeable programs that compete for the same market segment). The corporate molochs that have the scale to develop these kinds of software also have the power to push them on a shelf at BestBuy.
With Apple, there is far less choice in terms of competition for the same type of software, but all the areas of need are covered, with the exception of highly specialised, niche software like AutoCad. On the other hand, there is a wide variety of indie software developed by skilled individuals or small companies that often doesn't have a decent match on Windows (Quicksilver anyone?) and which you probably won't find at BestBuy.
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I'd argue the reverse is true as well though. Many companies have specialized company-specific software designed to run only on Windows. For example, a guy where I work built a customized data-sharing system that works especially well for categorizing and accessing the particular sorts of information the nontechnical people at my workplace need.
And I have a friend whose boyfriend pushed her into buying a Mac... not at all the right choice for her needs or budget. She was furious when she found her major-specific software didn't work on it, and she's not in a technical field either.
To be honest, there's a lot of niche software out there in a lot of fields... it seems like more and more people are needing some niche software for work-related matters.
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Serious?
Launchy or executor provide quicksilver functionality.
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All very good points. Especially the last one. The best examples of crappy s/w are the things like the "$10 Home Design Software - Includes Landscaping Objects!" I know as a kid I bought more than a couple of those and was severely disappointed when I got home.
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Wait, you bought home design software as a kid?
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Just a personal observation regarding the business place of apple: My university, for the first few years I was there, sold only macs. No options at all for PC users. They just recently started selling PC's as well, but not nearly the selection. I can't help but think Apple is trying their hardest to corner the market on education, which of course is going to drive up the business market share.
I've also noticed that every professor whose office I've seen (in the sciences) has a desktop mac, and this seems a little higher rate than simple probability would dictate.
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I can't help but think Apple is trying their hardest to corner the market on education, which of course is going to drive up the business market share.
Definitely. Lots of companies do this. See the MSDNAA program.
I've also noticed that every professor whose office I've seen (in the sciences) has a desktop mac, and this seems a little higher rate than simple probability would dictate.
I wonder if that's because of your university policies or because professors really like macs?
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Did you look at the boxed software on that Best Buy shelf? 90% of it is pure, utter shit. And the 10% that is worth a damn is far more likely to be cross platform.
Games.
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It is true that alot of the software out there is crap. But I have to disgaree with your 10% supposition. Game titles are few and far between for Macs. Business software is practically nonexistent. Unless you just want to make movies and draw, you're not going to be playing with the cool kids.
Where I work, we have bought Macs. And I was curious why they bought them. Big G5s too. After asking around, you know what I found out? They needed to test our websites with Safari. Yes, they are morons - no one bothered to tell them Safari exists for Windows. So they bought them and use them as web browsing machines. Thats it. Those who do use them for anything else, end up installing a virtual XP machine so they can actually work on the domain and use Outlook. Dont be totally sold by the increase in marketshare as the reasons arent all that impressive.
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See, that is a stupid reason to get a Mac. But that doesn't make all Mac users stupid.
For instance, I'm an art student (I know, yuk yuk) whose gaming horizons end with Valve's FPSs and with Braid. For me, getting a Mac was perfect since I don't mind booting into Windows to play Team Fortress. And within my realms of interest, I've got a ton of awesome stuff on the Mac that I'd never have thought to look for on the PC. Even simple stuff like Preview's photo editing made me curious in types of art I'd never have thought to look at when I had Windows Photo Viewer for camera pictures. Some of the simpler stuff, too: because the Mac makes drag-n-drop so easy, I do a lot more re:simplistic actions that I wouldn't have done before. I have less of an aversion to online file uploading, for instance, since I don't have to open a dialogue box for every photo I put online (I refuse to install Java because it feels icky, and most mass uploaders are Java-based; it's stupid, but I like it, and I don't suffer from that on a Mac versus on Windows).
I know a lot of entrepreneurs stick with Macs since small businesses rarely need the enterprise stuff that you're talking about. Small business software is rampant on OS X. Billing systems, banking systems, are all available and fairly beautiful.
So long story short, it depends on what you want, but I personally like more programs on the Mac than I do on Windows, because I'm not a businessperson. That's not a bad thing.
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mac mkt share has maybe doubled since the intel platform, allowing dual booting, if you average all the tracking data. Also mac has significantly less viability in a business app, its like buying a betamax vcr at the end of the vcr wars, sure, you can do a lot with it, and it is a better quality (I've owned betamax) but it is a pale tiny segment compared to the dominant, and ignored by most enterprise software. I work with a variety of proprietary software for instrumentation or equipment and none of it works on anything but windows. As a result, my company can never go mac. Virtualization, sure, but the simple fact is mac offers nothing that windows doesn't have, you can get the same hardware, you can get the same applications, you can make the OS as secure with other software, so where is the mac benefit? And if I were to virtualize I'd base it on linux, not mac, same or better hardware, better performance and value.
mac has nothing but marketing and fanboy loyalty, now that the vista fiasco is almost over expect mac market share to start shrinking down. If anything linux will continue to grow and get better corporate acceptance. Once it does that, it will get consumer growth (people buy for home what they use at work for the most part)
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Are you kidding me? I can't "take exception to Netapp's methodology" because you fail to cite a source or even give a summary of said methodology. The only way I could see Apple's market share increasing threefold in the past six years is due to those statistics including iPhones, and I hardly see how that would bring perspective to this thread.
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Feel free to Google /Netapp operating system market share/. Since I'm not getting paid for commenting, I only fully cite sources when I feel like it. This is not one of those times.
If you're interested in this data, look it up yourself, or else continue existing in your current benighted state. I don't care either way.
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'Did you look at the boxed software on that Best Buy shelf? 90% of it is pure, utter shit. And the 10% that is worth a damn is far more likely to be cross platform."
Just like the app store right? And the app store is definitely an arrow in Apple's quiver? How's that different from the far better software selection on PC? Lots of it is crap, but more options is hawt.
/me owns an iPhone, loves it
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Maybe if I diagram my perception of the situation, it would be more effective. Infographics ftw.
Windows |ooooooo|xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
Mac |ooooo|xxxxxxx|
o = good
x = shit
So Windows has a lot more total software but only a little more good software (where good is defined as something that I would want to buy).
I'm not really talking about the iPhone here, but to change gears I would say that from my perception the iPhone has a far more extensive app economy than any other phone. I'm sure some here would charge that that's because Apple users are gullible and love to buy crappy things, but that position doesn't resonate with me. Personally I'm very tight-fisted -- to the extent that not buying things I want gives me a metaphorical hard-on -- and I still have bought several apps for my iPhone.
The quality of an app market is defined by how much of value is within, not the total quantity. Unquestionably Windows is still winning the software market by this metric, but compared to the user base it may not be by as much as you think.
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How is the app store related to software for computers? Comparing it to the Apple stores would be a correct comparison, but the app store has no relevance.
/iPhones FTW!
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What does the App Store have to do with anything? That's software for a telephone. If you want a valid comparison, try the equally shitty Nokia store. Either way, this is completely irrelevant to the Mac <-> PC argument.
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I loved those fake I'm a Mac commercials where the dialogue goes
"Hey PC, what're you doing?" "Oh, just playing a game"
Mac looks dejected.
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One word ... "Crysis"
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That is a list of all of the high end games out for the Mac in the last two years, isn't it?
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Wow, one game doesn't really end that battle you know...
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You're absolutely right. ;-)
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They sell software.... on shelves.....? Like physically? Wow!
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They even come in a fucking box. I was floored
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What's the point of boxes on shelves for software? I mean, really. Do people go to the software aisle and browse for random stuff, buying whatever has a cool-looking box?
p.s. kein mitleid für die mehrheit
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so a keygen isn't normally supplied with the software?!
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Hehe, I've had that tried on me once, I used to sell computers when I was at university just as the iMac first came out and the reps came to train us. I asked a similar question, namely;
Me: "So you're going to increase the range of software?"
Apple: "It comes with everything you'll ever need already installed"
Me: "Photoshop, so that I don't have to learn another image editing program?"
Apple: "Well, no."
Me: "Cubase, so that I can still record music and share multitrack files and VST instrument settings with my musical friends for remixes?"
Apple: "No."
Me: "Adobe Premier so that I can carry forward all of my semi-finished edits and complete them on my new shiny iMac?"
Apple: "No."
Me: "But it comes with Battlefield 1942 so I can carry on kicking people's asses online and not have to start playing a totally different game, right?"
Apple: "No."
Me: "But it comes with everything I will ever need, doesn't it? Or was that a bit of a marketing lie that should really say 'it comes with everything you will ever need if you only ever want to type the odd letter and surf the internet'?"
He wasn't very impressed. I got told off by my manager until I pointed out that I was just saying that if we repeated that line to customers, that was what we would get in response and we would look a) stupid, and b) really stupid.
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Someday when they've perfected brainwashing and made it cost effective, it will never again be safe to take an entry-level retail job.
Actually, I worry it will not be safe to take any.
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I think I was one of the rare few. A drop into many big name electronics shops now convinces me that your fears have already been realised.
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Get off the FUD bat; Photoshop and Premiere were made primarily for Mac. They built the original Windows versions AFTER the Mac ones. Cubase has an OSX version. The latest Battlefield works on Mac. As well as the Sims and more and more games.
You are stupid, because you asked for software that are readily available on a Mac. And the guy was really stupid, because he didn't know either and answered you bullshit.
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OK, let me simplify it so that even you can understand it.
He said "It comes with everything you'll ever need already installed."
Does a Mac come supplied, out of the box, with Photoshop or Premiere?
Well, does it?
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Who buys software at BestBuy?
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I'm guessing millions of people do.
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The same people that shop at BestBuy. oooooooooooooooooooooh yeah.
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Meh, every program I want runs on mac except for steam.
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Same here. I run XP on bootcamp just for Steam.
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That can run too with Crossover Games (hacky, yes, but workable)
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Yeah, and you only had to pay $500 more to get an OS that runs ALMOST as many programs as Windows.
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Not like I can't install Windows onto my Mac in a multitude of ways(parallels, bootcamp, etc)
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Windows runs almost as many programs as Linux, and costs a few hundred more. And when I bought my mac it was only about $200 more than an equivalent PC, and came with a lot more software (Garage Band etc.). And its thinner than other similarly specked PC laptops.
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What exactly is wrong with paying more for something one enjoys more? I prefer Linux which is conveniently free, but if Linux did not exist (or BSD or anything similar -- just play along here), I would gladly pay the Mac premium to avoid the lowest-common-denominator Windows world. It's the exact same reason I don't shop at Wal-Mart, or use Comcast: they value quantity over quality. And the result is that their quality is shit.
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That argument barely holds water these days.
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Oh, well, that settles it then
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From my experience, there's nothing I use professionally that isn't available on OS X. Matlab, Mathematica, nice LaTeX software. So the added value of the OS itself (which is a lot more user-friendly and well-designed) is what makes a few hundred extra bucks a worthy investment. I couldn't give less shit about being "socially accepted" or "cool" if I tried. I like it because, as an engineer, I like my tools properly made.
Also, people who buy software in those little cardboard boxes from BestBuy need to expand their horizons. We have this thing called "the Web" now.
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Speaking of Apple salesmen at Best Buy: Yesterday my parents were suckered into buying a 13" Macbook "Pro" (though I'm sure they're very happy with it). Apparently it comes with the Apple version of Office! (more like the Apple version of Notepad). Also, apparently Apple does not sell extended warranties, so you'll need to spend an extra $300 at Best Buy in order to get one.
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I bought the same Mac Book Pro about a month ago from the apple store. They also offer "Apple Care", it's a 3 year extended warranty that cost me $180. If I am correct they can just purchase apple care at anytime from the apple store online or at a brick and mortar store. It's a good deal less then the "questionable" best buy extended warranty and it's directly from Apple, which makes me feel a little better inside.
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Like what? I haven't felt the need to get a windows application over a mac one in years. The closest thing I've come to that is TF2, and that runs in crossover now.
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Okay but their different systems for different people. I for one don't need even a wall of software. I've had my laptop for a year now and the only software I've ever ran besides what it came with was reason and logic. Those were the only two I needed and they were very easy to obtain in ahem illicit manners. So pointing out a difference is not a valid argument. If you want a warehouse of software, buy a fucking windows-based laptop. Don't bash people who had the money and the want for the superior hardware.
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Except that the hardware isnt superior. When it comes down to it, you ARE running a PC... one that happens to be tied to OSX. You options are limited, and your hardware is overpriced. Sorry, but a DVD drive is a DVD drive - doesnt matter what logo is on it. A video card is a video card. USB is USB. Not to mention, they all run on Intel. There's absolutely nothing superior. It's merely an imaginative idea, based on marketing. For all the cost, you've really just bought OSX - something that too, can be run on an ordinary PC.
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That's not what I meant. I meant that the keyboard, trackpad, and case of the laptop. They are more resiliant than any other laptop I've used. If I was going to spend the $800 for a laptop anyways, I'd rather buy one that will last.
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And superior software where it matters.
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You'd have to back that up, and I can only imagine the fun people will have in ripping apart your idea of what is "superior software". Best suggestion is to not reply at all.
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Ummm, yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and sorta dissagree with you there. Seeing as a mac can runs windows, I don't see how you logically say that a PC can run more software. Just sayin.
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Does the broad come with it? *snicker
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If you take away the aisle of security software (which macs don't need), the aisle of games (which macs can't play), and the aisle of garbage (which you shouldn't be buying anyway), you're left with the useful cross platform stuff.
You'll need to give examples of software you want to purchase but isn't available on the mac for you to make your point.
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Is it that easy?
Microsoft Visual Studio 2008
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That doesn't really count ... why would you want to develop windows applications on a mac? Sure, there are some non-windows-specific things in MSVS, but really, how often is it used that way?
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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Who cares about more software - most of it is malware bullshit anyway.
OS X provides the best development platform ever. I didn't used to be a 'Mac-person' or whatever but OS X really is a class product. Everything from XCode+Cocoa+Interface Builder to having the GNU utils and so on just makes it easy to develop for. And for third-party software it also has Textmate. When you just want to get work done it really is unbeatable - low maintenance and great tools, what more could you ask for?
Apple also show no signs of stopping this dominance - helping to develop WebKit for the next-generation of browsers and being the primary sponsor behind LLVM.
braces for downmods by fat WoW nerds who don't even know what LLVM is
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I care about more software. And what percentage of software off the shelf is malware bullshit?
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Well half of it is 'Security Software' like Antivirus crap - you shouldn't want to run that anyway. Then there's loads of half-baked stuff that you can find better Free Software to do stuff like dvd ripping (use Handbrake) and so on.
The only exclusive apps are games - and even now most EA games have Cider wrappings to provide Mac support (note it is not a real port), it's a bit of a pita but I'm not a huge gamer and it's certainly worth the sacrifice for the great development system.
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Really though, I've had a mac for three years now- the only software limitations I've ever had have been with small programs that were specific to a point (and even then, they usually have a counterpart).
Then again- I don't need Quicken Books, Turbo Tax, and a slough of other pointless applications (the crap that fills up shelves and shelves- you didn't mean to suggest it was actually software you use, did you?).
I'm not saying Macs are better than PC's - just that it's really ridiculous to criticize a mac for lacking supporting software (except games, and then you already know it: buy the pc if you want a game).
What I do hate, is smug assholes who go to Best Buy to ask this question and think they're proving a point.
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I look around at all the PC software and ask them "so where's the Mac software?".
It's in the same place you find software for Linux.
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In a constantly updated free online repository?
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Oh snap!
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… called the Internet!
Okay fine, Macs have nothing that even comes close to apt-get. I wish they did. I miss things from using Linux, and apt-get and Wine are the two biggest.
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I'd put money on the next big OS-X upgrade forcing Mac users to go through iTunes for all of their software.
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Well seeing as it is Unix based and supports a lot of the same software, then yes.
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Yeah, the Pirate Bay.
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I have tons of software I can't find acceptable equivalents of on Windows. Quantity != Quality.
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For example?
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iHipster
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Before you bother..lets remember, this part of the question is completely subjective. They prefer their iTitles. But the fact is, their titles are nothing special compared to equivalent PC titles. Cropping an image, is still cropping an image. Recording a video woo hoo. Hell, the Amiga could render 3D video when their little Apples were barely buds on the tree.
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Coda, Textmate, Quicksilver, Tweetie, Adium, Aperture, Final Cut, Boxxe, iTunes and it's integration with Airport Express. Just off the top of my head.
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I am a dedicated Windows/Linux user (and will not be switching to Mac anytime in the foreseeable future), but I agree with you. There are some excellent Mac programs that don't exist on the PC, and you are absolutely right: Quantity != Quality. Even from the other side of the fence, I'm sorry to see you being downvoted.
edit: I upvoted you. =)
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Your consideration is appreciated isarl.
I don't think people outside of the IT industry understand that it's possible for people to routinely use Windows and linux, and a couple of other OS's every day.
But whatever... I'm an Apple fanboi. VOTE ME DOWN
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Plus I have always hated that little smarmy asshole who was being a total jerk to someone who looked to be a really nice guy. Fuck you Apple, my dad uses a PC and so do I. It's about time you stood up and kicked some ass (even if you do it a little slower)
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it's the ad the apple wants you to see. They want that image. And that's fine. Look at Hummer -- the makers purposefully cast the hummer in that light, full well knowing it will disgust a lot of people. I think apple is in the same camp. Apple: the Hummer of computers.
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What's sad is your total confusion about affect and effect. Or did you mean it was sad that a commercial created him(so much...)?
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Nike is WAAAAAAAy better than Adidas.
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No Adidas is much better!
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Get some mufuckin Sambas up in this bitch
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Asics FTW
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Puma kicks Adidas' ass!
(gotta love sibbling rivalry)
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I used to be a Nike man, but then I switched to Sketchers. I haven't looked back since.
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You do realize the "nice" guy is an Apple guy in reality, right? John Hodgman rocks.
And it's odd how people think Justin Long's character is smarmy. I never really got that vibe.
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Those apple ads completely push the limits way more than the Laptop Hunters ones do. The thing where they show Microsoft putting stacks of money on advertising Vista vs fixing it? Total BS (and doesn't show apple's marketing budget). The "Fine Print" ad had all sorts of things that apply to Apple just as well. The time travelling ad, where they go into the future and PCs still crash? Total conjecture on apple's part. Apple's playing swamee now. Nice.
You don't see any of those ads as smarmy?
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Just like how right now I don't realize I'm being a FUCKING ASSHOLE
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Justin's character always came across as the smug non-jock artsy asshole from high school who carried around poetry or books by Russian authors ...
BTW, I was a pseudo-jock who played sports and carried a 4.0 in AP classes.
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What's wrong with Russian authors?
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BTW, I was a pseudo-jock who played sports and carried a 4.0 in AP classes
Good for you. Perhaps it's time to remove that chip off your shoulder and move on. :-)
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I always pegged his character as one of those guys who hung out in the student lounge playing fooseball instead of attending class.
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It's always seemed to me that apples ad campaign was just "WIndows sucks!!! Get a mac" without examining what makes a mac good.
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More like, macs will make you cooler, in an emo pretending I don't care way.
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Ads aren't there to "make logical points." Ads are there to get people to buy stuff.
Targeting Macintosh customers is a pretty stupid way for Microsoft to grow their Windows sales. The only way Microsoft will be able to grow their Windows sales is to grow the entire market - get people to buy their first computer, or replace an existing computer earlier than they otherwise would.
But this isn't about good marketing anyways. This is about Microsoft's insecurities.
2
Though, you must admit that the people in those PC ads are idiots. I mean, sure, if you want to buy a cheap computer buy a PC. But if you're going into movie editing with $2000 to spend, why would you not get a mac?
2
Because you can edit movies just as well on a PC? It really comes down to preference. There is no reason that Mac is better for video editing, or vice versa. Pure preference.
0
Because you can edit movies just as well on a PC?
That's absolute crap. Unless you're on the extreme high end, the best app out there is iMovie. Even on the high end, the market is pretty evenly split between Avid and Final Cut Pro. But feature wise, iMovie dominates the lower end market. And considering that it's free with the mac for easily under $2000, that should be the obvious choice.
0
Well I don't know about you, but I, and many MANY other people in my college have made perfectly awesome movies using Adobe Premiere Pro. There is nothing wrong with windows software, its just a choice of which operating system you want. You obviously prefer Mac. I do not. There is nothing crippled about Premiere Pro.
2
I don't dislike the new Microsoft ads, and as a consumer I can only encourage competition. However, the Microsoft ads are at best misleading in their way of portraying the price difference between Macs and Pcs and the value that you get from the purchase of either.
-1
Apple should aim much more at developers - with NeXTSTEP, Cocoa, LLVM, and all the GNU utils available (let alone third-party stuff like Textmate) it provides a brilliant development platform.
-1
Except that you are developing for a OS that is a tiny share of the market?
1
If you use Cocoa you are aiming at Apple platforms, that includes the iPhone though.
But the tools can be used for cross-platform stuff, you can install Qt and all the Linux stuff on OS X to develop with if you wish.
0
But why? Why would you develop for linux on anything but linux? That does not make any sense.
0
My girlfriend never suggestively rubbed any of my work ThinkPads while cooing "ooh, shiny. Pretty."
QED.
Edit: You're just jealous. Nyah.
-1
Chrysler makes the same logical point: they're generally cheaper than those overpriced Japanese cars.
-2
I don't really consider them overpriced. Most PCs have gaudy leds and stickers, no backlit keys, the same shitty plastic keyboard, etc.. I'm willing to pay more for cooler stuff.
Also, no cd trays. Those things need to die already like the caddy.
-2
That is, until you realize...OH FUCK THE CD/DVD WON'T POP OUT! WHAT DO I DO?
Good luck with your slot-loader.
1
when you make what used to be a manual function into a motor-actuated process, it does open up the possibility of failure; you have a valid point.. however, one could use that logic and say they prefer manual windows to power windows in the car. It's an advancement the industry has made because it's mostly an improvement.
1
I would like to refer you to this post
As you can see explained there, a Mac is a %250 markup on a similar, and slightly better PC, that includes "backlit keys", and has a custom case, meaning I get "gaudy leds" If I want, or I don't if I don't want them. My keyboard is also the rather expensive G15. If I really wanted, I could have picked up a slot load cd drive for a little extra. But you are crazy if I am going to pay an extra $1500 just for a few very trivial features.
1
No doubt PCs give you more bang for the buck. But the extra money is about more than just design, that's only a small part of it. I have a Mac Pro too in my studio.
0
Really? To me the commercials say "Macs don't crash and don't get viruses"
-3
In literal terms, yes they do "say" that. I was referring to the intentional subliminal messaging that comes across in the advertisements.
6
Yeah, but what do you expect? At least Apple doesn't make PC a pimply gamer. John Hodgman always comes across as lovable. I don't think that's unintentional. Apple's meaning to be lighthearted and teasing, not blatantly assholes about it.
Justin Long and John Hodgman actually have really nice rapport on-screen. I like watching them banter.
-2
Trust me, their choices of characters are very very intentional. The "PC" is meant to be stupid, old, over-weight, rigid, boring and a businessman, which is meant to reflect that Windows is for old boring business men. The "Mac" is meant to be young, cool, hip, smart, witty, and likely a student, which is meant to reflect that Macs are for cool young people. Yes, there is some banter about "oh I don't get viruses", etc, but the main point that Apple is trying to feed kids is that buying a Mac will make you cool.
1
While a product can compete on cost, if cost is the only thing it's competing on, it's safe to say that, given a more or less stable market, the more expensive product is superior.
Also, most of us are computer people who get paid a very reasonable salary. Settling for cheap-ass hardware is kind of like a race car driver taking his Ford Festiva home from the racetrack.
-3
From what I understand, the ads are supposed to be comparing similar hardware and their prices. Otherwise, the advertisements would have no merit whatsoever. And for the record, mac hardware is usually twice the price as PC hardware.
2
Let's see you set up an equivalent Dell laptop to an Apple laptop with the most identical specs. I think you'll find the price difference is FAR less than double. Perhaps 1.1 times as much. And people are obviously buying them at the higher price, so there must be SOME value they add.
-1
You are forgetting something. Dell is only one brand of PC.
1
Also, I will put my money where my mouth is. I went to the Apple website and decided to go with their most expensive Macbook pro.
I then went to the Dell website and punched in the EXACT same specs (and let me tell you, Dell gives you way more options) and I came out with two matching PC's here and here.
Now lets see how the prices stack up for these nearly identical laptops:
Dell Studio 17: $849.00
Dell Alienware M17x: $1,874.00 (And this one has a 1GB graphics card)
Macbook Pro: $2,499.00 (WHAT THE FUCK?!)
I'm sorry to break it to you, but Mac's are just over-priced, over-glorified computers. You can buy the same hardware with an equally nice design for a third of the price, then buy OSX separately for $129.00 and save a bundle of money.
1
upvoted for the nice example
0
MacBooks will make you the subject of envy for many, but also spoil you rotten with nice design and stable software. I am willing to give up some specs/pay extra for that because I can afford. If I struggled with money, I'd buy Dell or Assus too. The MacBooks are worth the price if you can afford.
-3
you forgot /s
4
Except that I can buy two and a half of my current computer for the price of one Mac Pro that has similar specs. Why would you pay nearly triple for the exact same hardware? Rich or not, that's plain stupidity.
1
Apple was pretty much just saying "buying a Mac will make you cool and socially accepted"
I never saw that in their pitch. Those ads just say buy a Mac and you can avoid these types of problems that Windows users have. Whether you agree or not is a different argument, but the ads don't say buy a Mac to be socially accepted.
-4
Yeah, except for the part where the Mac is the young cool guy, and the PC is the older accountant-looking guy.
7
Yeah, it was just a coincidence that the mac was a young good looking artsy guy and the PC was a middle aged boring man in a suit.
6
Compare it stat for stat and thats not the case. The PC laptops in the commercial are 1-2 year old models compared to the newest apples.
-5
That may be so (I'm not sure), however I can tell you this. I have around $1000 (taxes in) invested in my current PC, including monitors, keyboard, mouse, speaker system, etc. The closest thing in stats I can find on the Apple store is the quad core on this page that sells for $2,499.00 before taxes. Not only is that a 250% markup on the same parts, but my computer actually has an additional gig of ram, twice the hard drive space, dual burners and is decked out with a sweet case and interior lighting.
Macs just do not have the same value as a PC.
10
Not if you count the parts like that. But the while is greater than the sum of the parts.
-2
Eh? I do not understand your sentence. Please explain it to me better.
2
[deleted]
-1
'Apple was pretty much just saying "buying a Mac will make you cool and socially accepted"'
Really? Where's that ad?
-14
7
POW! Right in the kisser!
6
Umm? what?
-2
lol... fail.
He doesn't say anything remotely close to what you've suggested. Perhaps you have a comprehension problem?
-11
Perhaps you have a comprehension problem?
I think it was implied.
Also, you may want to read up on Influencing and conditioning in advertising.
If you cannot make the association that the person representing mac is the "cool hipster" and the person representing the PC is the "boring, fat office worker", then I think it is you with a comprehension problem. Trust me, those characters are not an accident. People go through years of college to learn clever and almost subliminal advertising techniques like that.
5
That's lame on Apple, to say the least. They been making fun of MS in their successful advertisements for years and they get mad that MS is somewhat doing the same? tsk tsk Oh yeah, I'm writing this from an Apple MacBook Pro, hopefully that it won't shutd
116
Im a Mac, and I agree
59
I'm a PC. Can we be friends?
32
I'm a Linux. I sometimes have trouble making friends (Sometimes I don't even wanna make friends). But once you get to know me, and I start to get comfortable with you, we can become good friends.
5
[deleted]
0
Sure, If you can hold and share my files and play games. Then I'll check the mail, do the surfing, the programming, the photo collecting, all that boring stuff.
(My Mac and PC are best friends, though I think my Mac wished my PC talked something other than Samba)
4
But PC has a nicer IDE.
1
Okay, okay, okay...serious question here.
WTF is wrong with you people that you're doing development on your goddamned laptop?!?
1
I am an Ubuntero on a $300 netbook. I think I win.
0
PCs are full of viruses, even if you run linux. They also make you fat.
4
Me too--it's a tie.
2
I'm an Android on a portable smartphone. Game, set, match.
2
[deleted]
1
You'll have to talk to the legal department about that.
0
I want to be a mac, and I agree too. Those msft ads are awesome. So effective and persuasive that it makes me doubt whether I really want to get a mac.
11
I didn't find them particularly persuasive, they were far too general. Usually, the person finds a laptop which is cheaper than a mac that can do "everything I need." This, obviously, can vary a great deal from person to person, if you only have very basic needs (browser and word) then of course a netbook which runs windows would be best for you, but if you need to do some serious work in creative or design fields than likely a mac is a better machine, and if you need windows(or Linux, for that matter) install it on the Mac. The newest Macbook can play a great many games(with the graphics turned down) on a parallels or bootcamp.
0
(with the graphics turned down)
6
Bullies do not like to be bullied back.
39
At least he was able to press enter to submit the comment!
10
If I may skip ahead .... perhaps he was dictating?
1
I think the reason Apple are complaining is that the prices have changed.
I've never seen the ads, but if they include something along the lines of "oh here's a mac laptop, it's $xxx, that's so expensive" when actually they now cost less than $xxx, that is untrue and they shouldn't show it. They should edit/reshoot the ad to reflect current prices. I doubt it would make them significantly less effective.
I don't know if you have any kind of advertising standards bodies in the US. Here in the UK they are pretty hot on this sort of thing, and you certainly wouldn't get away with showing an ad that claimed a competitors products cost more than they actually do.
1
Please stop anthropomorphizing companies. I wouldn't be surprised if calls like this one happened all the time.
1
[deleted]
1
[deleted]
0
i guess candlejack is working for ap-
-4
I think you're being downvoted because you're getting the meme wrong, there's not supposed to be a dash at the end of a sentence with Candlejack in it, just fin
2
Plus the candlejack meme has really playe
1
i am well aware that the candlejack meme has been played out for the better part of a year, so i hope that's why I'm being downvoted. However, it does end in a das-
0
Not to mention Apple's ads are completely inaccurate and misleading.
The one I'm thinking of right now is where there's 1 mac and 100 PC's and that women wanting a PC.
Women: "I want one that's fast"
PC: "Okay slow PC's get out"
and so on, till she says something like I want one that doesn't crash, have viruses, or gives me headaches
Has Apple never heard of a Kernel Panic? And the last time I used a Mac I spent most of my time looking at a spinning rainbow ball waiting for applications to load. Oh, and we all remember that Virus in iLife? I think? Something on BitTorrent that had a Mac Virus in it.
Complete lies.
110
Wait, you mean all Windows users aren't stuffy nerds, and all Mac users aren't laid back, cool kids that have an easy time talking to cute Japanese girls?
186
Wait wait wait... Just hold on one damn minute here. Jesus, let me catch my breath for fuck's sake... god... Okay, okay... So are trying to tell me, I mean, this is a bit much, that ads aren't really reflective of reality? Seriously?
Well that's just great. Thanks. Just what I needed right before bed; my whole fucking worldview shattered. Thanks, man. Well, that's it, you're off the party list, I can't have this kind of ... offensiveness disturbing the rest of us, I mean, if this is how you're going to act. Christ man, what is wrong with you?
I... I don't even know you you are anymore. sob
127
Wait wait wait ... I just slammed a gatorade, ate a powerbar, put on my nikes, and challenged Usain Bolt to a race ... am I not going to win?
75
[deleted]
39
If only you drank Powerthirst...
38
dude.. Bolt eats Nuggets before a race.. no way in hell you could ever beat a man like that
3
I see no reason why you shouldn't. Unless...hmmm maybe advertisements are alwa-No, never mind. Yes, you'll win.
0
I think he's talking more about apple's bs claims, like when they show PC spending money on Vista marketing instead of development. That's just an outright lie regarding MS's os strategy.
1
Just what I needed right before bed
Protip: Don't read reddit before going to bed. http://xkcd.com/386/
1
here's another, "he's" actually...a she
0
The irony is that Hodgeman is by far the coolest guy in those commercials, IRL.
19
Its because in reality he is a mac user.
2
Have you met both IRL? Or are you judging that based on their not-in-an-apple-commerical-but-still-not-real-life media appearances?
0
I have a mac AND a PC. I'm a stuffy nerd who gets HELLA cute Asian girls.
Not really. :-(
1
haha, why "japanese" girls?
just curious.
-1
Because there is an ad where the PC doesn't work with the cute japanese camera, but the Mac does.
13
I've never seen that one, but explains the Microsoft ad with the adorable little Asian girl who can use her camera and Microsoft image-editing features with amazing precision.
9
Because jap culture is "hip".
Call this an unfair generalization if you must, but you're more likely to see a Hello Kitty sticker on a Mac than on a PC.
-7
I don't know if you care or not, but I know a couple of Japanese people and at least one of them has expressed that "Jap" is an extremely offensive shortening of their nationality due to its use in WW2 propaganda. The preferred abbreviation is "jp."
5
I thought you would be less likely to see a sticker on a Mac in the first place.
-5
[deleted]
58
Well when someone is computer retarded it doesnt matter if its a Mac or a PC. I've seen fucked up computers on both OS's and who owns them?... a computer retard. I've also seen both OS's run fantasticly on sweet computers owned by people who aren't retarded.
36
[deleted]
23
Apple: tightly controlled hardware and software universe. Less complexity, less chance of fault, but also less options.
MS: decentralized hardware, greater complexity, more choice, except for the OS itself.
Linux: hyper-decentralized, great complexity, choice, but always lagging a little behind in some areas, but due to get there.
Three distinct business models. The Redmond model was clearly most lucrative for that company. In terms of value generated, it's hard to fight against open-source. Where would Google, etc., be without it.
18
Any car, when not properly maintained, will behave like crap.
Really, this is a point computer consumers really need to have drilled into their head. A computer is a complex piece of machinery that requires at least as much care and maintenance as an automobile. Yet most people insist on treating them like they are disposable playthings.
1
Well in order to combat that argument I'll tell you this.
50% of the PC work orders I deal with at work are for software/hardware bullshit. The other 50% is for people who dropped/spilled something on their laptop or something stupid.
90% of the Mac work orders are the user doing something stupid and 10% is the software/hardware bullshit.
In my neutral opinion, Macs do just work.
-1
actually that isn't true.. an OS X system doesn't really need to be maintained. It's windows that bogs down and gets slow over time due to the ever-growing registry. That shit doesn't happen on a mac.
-1
How, prey tell, do you "maintain" a mac? I turn it on, use it, put it to sleep, wake it, use it, put it to sleep... The whole idea of needing to "maintain" a computer is utterly ridiculous.
-3
Am I a computer retard if I deleted system 32 because someone on 4chan said it was a virus?
3
Don't you actually have to be an advanced power user to pull that off?
1
No that just makes a computer btard
1
Yes, sir. Yes you are.
1
But it comes with APPLE CARE, which is like... the best thing... ever! And only costs me a couple hundred more out of pocket!
(Actually two of my roommates have used this excuse, that Macs are so great because once they crash, which both computers have, Apple care is SOOOO helpful.)
34
My friend had beer spilled on his laptop 3 times. Each time Dell sent someone to his apartment to fix it for free. Apple care would never do that.
10
Yea they do.
-3
Why should they, your friend is an idiot and a careless one too, why should somebody else pick up the tab?
-3
You bet your ass they would. And they do.
EDIT: From someone who works in IT and deals with apple computers I can say from experience that Apple Care will cover that. Quit being unreasonable Mac haters reddit.
-6
Plus, I'm pretty sure you can pay for support from Microsoft as well.
0
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no.
1
[deleted]
-2
The university I went to always had a ton of weird issues on their Macs. Crashes, hangs, etc. To be fair, though, the computing services department there was hopeless; the Windows machines were a bit better, but not a lot.
11
My work Mac (in the PR department of my university no less) suffered two kernel panics and countless spinny beach balls of doom (read full system lockouts) over the two years that I worked there.
18
I recently got a Mac at work. It crashes way more frequently than my home machines. I almost never half a kernel panic on my home Macs, but the work ones were doing it once per day at one point. It turns out it was a buggy McAfee kernel module that brought the machine down.
The boxed software you buy in store is pretty rock solid, but companies or universities can force a janky image on everyone and ruin the OS.
15
I've had frequent kernel panics on out-of-box Macs in my lab. Maybe Apple just sends shite machines to Universities.
1
Points for the use of 'janky'
1
The mac i was using during my programming final ( not by choice) last term crashed in the middle and i lost all my work. Nearly failed that exam because of apple. Next term i believe class is in a windows lab, we'll see how that goes...
8
Was it all like beep beep beep?
2
Did it go "beep, beep, beep."
And were you stoned at the time?
2
....maybe your program did it? ;)
0
I would feel very uneasy doing a mission critical exam on any computer.
0
Freshman year of college, the Vista laptop we used to control a robot for a major project decided to lock up on the "resuming windows" screen for the whole ten or so minutes we were allowed for our final graded test. I failed that one because of Windows. Later that year, I used my Mac for a C++/Matlab class without any issues.
-1
I work at an advertisement agency and everyone has a mac... we have a shitload of problems, especially with models that are 1 to 2 years old :(
Lots of internal stock hdds failing... corrupted memory...
4
I walked in to a open access lab on a whim while waiting for an appointment a couple of weeks back, so a couple of Macs in the lab and though "oh wow, I didn't know we had Macs in the lab" sat down, moved the mouse, and was surprised to see it was running Vista.
1
Yeah same here. All the computers in my uni computer labs were PCs running windows except the ones in the psychology computing lab which were macs running a crappy mac OS. The PCs were pretty slow but the Macs were abominable. They only ever got used by most of the psych students when there was statistics modules going on for which the software was only installed on the macs. The rest of the time there'd be queues for the PCs and tumbleweed rolling past the macs.
I had to use one of the macs for a psych/english crossover module. I'm still traumatised. I don't want a hip computer when I'm doing work with a deadline. I want one that I can just use without having to fight the urge to punch a hole in the screen.
1
Its your chubby fingers man!
7
Actually the reason I hate using other people's Macs is because some people thing Exposé is actually a good idea, and appear to have adopted the insane practice of mapping it to middle-click.
PROTIP GUYS: This makes puppies cry!
3
I can understand your Exposé hatred, but I must say it was so lovely when I was editing a batch of photos for several reasons. First off, I loved being able to switch between PhotoMechanic, Photoshop, Safari, and Filemaker Pro with ease (though Win+Tab or Alt+Tab are superior. Good thing you can Apple+Tab). Secondly, it was great for hopping from photo to photo in Photoshop. Other than that it was kind of pointless.
Before any barrages of downvotes start, I must say, it was a work computer and I own all PCs running XP, Vista, 7, and Ubuntu. Both Windows and OSX are great for different reasons. I hated OS9, but once OSX came out, Apple shaped up some.
9
There are always going to be places where Exposé is useful, but mapping it to the middle-click button is mad - especially when someone like me comes along and tries to open a link in a new tab and woooooaaaah where'd all the windows go.
Making all the windows fly away when you go to a screen edge is worse, though.
So, actually, the only thing I dislike about Exposé is how it's triggered, barring keyboard shortcuts. Holding shift is fun too.
… but nothing can stop downvotes >_>
4
I map Expose to the bottom right corner of my screen on my editing Mac at work.
1
I have to agree, middle mouse is pretty horrible. The new mouse gestures, however, are perfect. Four finger swipe downwards is so much better than consuming a valuable key.
1
Map it to the top right corner and forget about it! It's extremely useful when running photoshop with more than 3 images open.
0
Last time I used Windows it sodomized me. True story.
1
[deleted]
3
Microsoft wants you to know that PCs are whores too... cheap whores.
2
Actually, it happens this way. The first time (out of three, over 2 years of use) my MBP froze was when someone of mac-hating background started dicking around with it when I was using it as media player in a party :)
1
Macs have a scorn sensor.
2
And I love being told how it's so intuitive and the defaults make sense. Then I go to try to open a file and the freaking enter key renames the damn thing and the only keyboard shortcut to open the file is some un-ergonomic 3 key combination monstrosity. WTF?!
1
Cmd + down arrow isn't really an "un-ergonomic 3 key combination monstrosity".
1
Ahh, well the mac expert had me hit Ctrl+Cmd+down meaning none of my fingers could stay on home row. Very annoying for a keyboard shortcut IMO.
1
And they say, "No this is the first time it has ever done this." It's always the first time it has ever not worked. Always.
That sounds like it could be the same kind of blind rationalization as described in this article:
1
Don't be one of those dick PC guys, "Macs they just don't work" Fuck. If I ever see you in the street, you and that damn Penguin or pelican or watever the fuck, Pelicans, who wants to understand them? nobody understands him anyways, he's like the little asian kid nobody understands.
like that Asian kid on Oceans eleven, twelve and thirteen i think too. I mean holy shit?! He's in three fucking movies and I have no clue what he is saying? And he gets paid for this shit, I mean his climbing skills are just fantastic but jeeze, I can understand him ever. just like bernie Mac, RIP Bernie. We had some good times Bernie, and you told America how it was every week. And i Listened Bernie, I listened. Man i get the chills just thinking about BM, might even go numb. Like when your legs go to sleep, they get all numb. Have you ever tried to take a piss when BOTH of your legs have fallen asleep? maaan its hard, it makes a mess but its actually quite an enjoyable experience, but this one time i accidently left the door open while trying at a friends house, and he started to bitch me out. I'm like dude, don't be a dick man, don't be a dick
0
Mac's only crash when you treat them like PC's. Out of 10 years of using Mac's properly, I have had 8 kernel panics total, and about 20 software crashes due to easily fixable file corruptions.
-4
I have been using Windows machines since the days of 3.0 and have seen 3 BSODs on my computers. One was from a hard drive failure, one was from a faulty BIOS update, and one was for some reason I can't remember (I think it was driver related). I have worked with Macs for 5 years and in that time I have seen far more kernel panics than BSODs. It's all in how you use the software.
With software, I have noticed that some of the software I used on Macs was far more buggy than on Windows, save for Photoshop.
7
You mean, when you multi-task with memory intensive applications?
7
[deleted]
6
How is that even an excuse? If you come over to my house and "treat my PC like a Mac", whatever that actually means, is it going to suddenly start crashing more? No, it wont.
7
You mean do something other then surf the internet?
6
[deleted]
3
Wow.
I think I've gotten a Blue screen like 5 times in all my 15(?) years using Windows, and 3 of those were in a row due to the same unresolved issue.
3
Oh, so when I use final cut pro and it crashes after doing fairly normal editing, it's because I used the Mac like a PC? Oh ok. I get it now. I think I'm not supposed to do anything and put the Mac on cruise control so the movie can edit itself. Thanks for the advice. I'll make sure to tell my hours of lost work that it was all my fault.
3
In all seriousness, as a PC owner who has never owned a Mac (but has briefly played around on a mac laptop) how exactly do you treat a computer(Mac) not like a computer(PC)?
Are there limitations or restrictions on a Mac I should be aware about? Are there things a Mac can do specifically a PC cannot?
2
It probably was the first time.
Mac and PC users use their computers differently.
PC users want to get shit done so they can move on with their life. They multi task and are constantly using their computer.
Mac users like to look at shiny things and watch their windows wiggle and flex. They enjoy looking at a spinning rainbow ball and like to take it easy, they aren't in a hurry.
So when people like you or me use a Mac, we use it like a PC and expect it to be fast and capable of multi tasking efficiently.
-5
God forbid you ask a modern, Unix-based operating system running on strictly vetted hardware to multitask.
25
I think this applies to all the OS's, but in years working in a MS environment, and years messing with Linux, primarily, and OSX, I can't recall a crash not related to hardware. I'm sure there was one in there somewhere. They're all pretty stable if you use them properly.
7
That was an awful troll, but it should be noted that having shit-tonnes of Safari tabs open has been the only way I've been able to crash my Macbook. I'm definitely a multi-tasker. (running 8 apps right now.) Since I switched to firefox (and love 3.5) it's been all good.
3
No, it's not. Macs crash all the time for me when I'm using Adobe Photoshop and Flash. I never have that problem with windows. I fact my Windows never crashes. I haven't had a crash in almost two years using Windows. However every time I use a Mac in a computer lab it crashes. Even though you don't do anything with your Mac more demanding than using Safari, a lot of other people do.
2
I have to ask about the speed of switching between your 8 apps. How fast is it? Drop a bunch of files on your desktop and then open your app and then try switching tasks.
2
I think you might be onto something here. Last time I tried using a Macbook (and it did crash, multiple times) I was trying to use multiple programs at once, and had multiple (tabs?) of safari open at the same time. I suspect its owner does not do the same.
1
I've got two windows of Firefox open, one with 8 tabs, one with 5, uTorrent is going, downloading all 7 Harry Potter audiobooks, and I'm syncing my iPhone. I haven't rebooted in about a month. It's a MacBook. It's crashed once in the year I've owned it. Because I was running MS Office with a browser window open.
Yeah, we can multitask just fine.
4
As a software developer, if I want to get shit done, I want OS X. Windows is a terrible platform, requiring you to jump through hoops to do simple tasks. Toss in a terrible bundled browser that is years behind in standards and performance, having to support an old, outdated plugin architecture that is responsible for a significant number of serious security vulnerabilities, a bunch ridiculous things that I can't configure to MY tastes, and there's nothing palatable about a Windows machine except that it has access to a large library of games, which is a pretty good selling point if that's what you care about.
I would take a linux based machine as an alternative, but the additional built-in applications to OS X are extremely useful, and the integration with other devices and ease of use make it a better choice for just getting things done. It's definitely more expensive than a Windows machine, but I also expect to have a 5 year life-span on my macbook pro as opposed to the inevitable need to reinstall my operating system on whats just outdated hardware every 2 years.
Additionally, after spending a decade developing Windows applications, I can tell you that compared to OS X or a linux distro, Windows internals are a total mess.
1
well, OSX is usually behind on JDK releases , how does that make it best development platform?
3
Yeah I agree Windows is a complete piece of shit that's only good for games. I wonder why most ATM's use Windows anyways, not to mention almost all banks use Windows for there infrastructure.
You may use OS X to "get shit done" but once you're done, you end up with a bloated distributable. Why is it that EVERY time I see an application that is multi-platform, the Mac version is ALWAYS has the largest filesize? And we're not talking a MB or two bigger, it's usually DOUBLE the Windows version.
Example, VLC
Windows: 17MB
Mac: 29MB
uTorrent
Windows: 281KB Mac: 1239KB
iTunes is a 74.4MB download for Windows
Safari is a 27.1MB download for Windows, or 40MB on a Mac
iTunes is larger than a service pack, explain that. It's a MEDIA player.
0
AAAAAAA I want to upvote this twice. Even thrice. It seems reddit is basically 90% MS.
Windows is one of the worst things that has ever happened to computing in general.
0
[deleted]
0
I don't think you have ever used a macintosh product in your life. I am personally running iTunes, Firefox, Vuze, Photoshop, and Skype. This is not at all affecting my power. I think you need to re-tool your argument.
-1
I am personally running iTunes, Firefox, Vuze, and Photoshop, and Skype. This is not at all affecting my power.
I'm using the original Macbook air and, while simultaneously running iTunes, Firefox, iChat, and Mail, I can get whatever I need done, unless it involves something like 3D modeling.
3
Mac windows don't wiggle and flex. Compiz is Linux-based.
-2
You forget that most Apple users are drinking the Apple kool-aid.
2
I am by no means an Apple fan, but holy shit that is some awful trolling. I don't know how you're getting upvoted.
-2
Random tech-support type guy here. I agree that the ads are crap, but I get a feeling that your facts are too. Rebuttals in no particular order:
- What the heck were you doing to your Mac to provoke a Kernel Panic? I've never, ever seen OSX crash. Then again, I've never seen Vista crash either. Are you trying to enter the Konami code by repeatedly inserting and removing USB devices in a morse-code pattern or something?
- What applications were you loading? The only thing that gives me a beachball is Firefox (not even Photoshop—it puts up a loading screen for a minute and a half, but no beachball.)
- That was a root-kit distributed as a trojan—it's not a virus unless it "infects" further on its own.
32
- I get Kernel Panics as much as I get Blue Screens. Almost never. The problem is Windows supports more devices than Apple will EVER even dream of. Between the thousands and thousands of devices, one is going to break the system sooner or later. When you only have one type of RAM, Motherboard, CPU, etc, it makes the chances of getting a system crash next to none.
- Xcode? I think it's called. Whatever Apples development IDE is.
- Either way, Mac's aren't 100% safe.
27
The problem is Windows supports more devices than Apple will EVER even dream of.
Well its actually the other way round, the hardware vendors support windows, which is clearly a reflection of windows market share than of Windows the OS.
1
Not really. Apple has considerable control over the vast majority of the hardware used in the system.
Peripherals, you're right. But the bulk of the hardware in your system lives on your motherboard, and that's fixed in a Mac.
3
Why does it take windows so long to recognize a standard dell usb keyboard and mouse if you plug it into a different usb port? Not a new device either, something that's been there for a while in another hub/port. On a mac they always just work instantly which is kind of awesome.
1
That's one thing that has really annoyed me about Windows. I'm trying to remember if I ever encountered it in XP, or if it's just Vista, but anytime I plug a USB device into a different port, it installs the drivers for it again. Seriously, can anyone tell me what's up with that?
2
I can't comment on that since I've never experienced that problem. Anything plugged into any port is recognized right away. I've never had to reinstall drivers for a device I've previously installed drivers for.
2
This does not occur when the USB device supplies a proper, unique serial number during enumeration. I'm pretty sure there's a reason for this behavior, but I don't know what it is.
2
I agreed with you up until Apple only has one type of RAM, Motherboard, CPU. Firstly, Apple supports exactly the same type of RAM as Windows. Secondly, it supports various types of motherboards from a range of manufacturers and Thirdly, Apple supports Intel, PowerPC and ARM CPUs. Hardly one is it.
0
That's why you can only install Mac OSX on Apple hardware right? That is, without severe modifications to the installation disk
Apple doesn't use PPC anymore, since Intel was superior. And they support those because BSD supports those, not because they specifically wrote the assembly for the boot loader.
On an unrelated note, does OSX even come in a 64 bit version? Or is it just 32 bit with PAE?
2
-
So, with your first point, you're seceding that Macs don't crash—it's just that nothing else does either. That's perfectly okay: you can market a product as "made out of atoms", even though everything is made out of atoms. It's spin, but it's not deception.
-
In my experience, Visual Studio and Eclipse do the same thing to Windows and Linux. That's not a Mac problem, that's a problem with IDEs in general. IDEs are programs designed for mythical "developer setups" with 8192TB of RAM.
-
Complaining that Macs aren't safe because of trojan horses is like complaining that your house isn't safe because you brought home a hooker who turned out to have an STI. What the hell is safe under those conditions? (The answer is "a computer that's not plugged into the Internet." The alternate answer is "a dystopian OS where nothing will run unless signed, and thus where cracked versions of programs—the point of downloading from torrent sites—no longer exist at all.")
-4
- No no, they both CAN crash. I just haven't seen it often. Kernel Panics and Blue Screens are usually caused by a hardware failure or bad driver. I was saying since there is such a wide variety of devices for windows, their has to be more drivers for it, which leads to a higher chance that one of them fails.
- Visual Studio has never ran as slow as xcode did for me. Sure, it doesn't start as fast as Notepad, but it loads faster than xcode did on the Mac. (then again, it may have just been the shitty hardware of the Mac I used) My Desktop has a 3Ghz quad core and 8GB of ram ( which when you think about it, only runs you like $500 now, pretty cheap)
- I really shouldn't comment on the viruses. I don't use AV software, and I don't have any viruses. Why? Because I don't download the myboobs.jpg.exe attachment and try to open it. Unless something exploits an unpatched vulnerability, 99% of viruses are because the user is clueless enough to run the virus.
12
What the heck were you doing to your Mac to provoke a Kernel Panic?
Some of the 10.4.8ish releases had problems with the builtin Airport in the MBP. Kernel panics would occur within a few minutes to tens of minutes of turning on Airport.
Virtualization software requires the addition of kernel extensions, which can break after an OS update.
13
I managed to get full system lock outs from having Pandora running in Safari, FileMaker Pro, Photoshop, and PhotoMechanic.
5
I would wonder if that's a Kernel Panic, or simply a UI freeze. I've seen the various processes of the OSX UI lock up, either together, or independently (the Dock seems to be the worst offender), but never the system running underneath (evident if you SSH in.) Mach and the NeXTStep- and BSD-derived libraries are all rock-solid, in my opinion, but I wouldn't make the same guarantee of Cocoa.
4
It's not a kernel panic. I've had three of those on the work Mac (not an old one, but an Intel one). It was a UI freeze of the worst sort and I have had them countless times. I literally left on assignment, took photos for an hour, came back, and it was still locked. I couldn't even force quit. Worse than any lock out I've had in Windows. With Windows, if a program locks up, I have always been been able to force quit the application. Not so in OS9 or OSX.
Edit: Why the hell is this being downvoted? It's a fact of usage. I'm glad if Apple's OS has always worked perfect for you, but it has not for me.
6
Regarding the kernel panics:
I don't know where your cases are, but as a mac specialist for my university, I've seen hundreds of kernel panics, caused by bad software updates, crippled system files, random corrupted preferences, etc etc etc.
Yes, macs and pcs work most of the times, but in terms of crashing, from my experience, I'd say they're relatively equal.
4
VLC and VMware seem to cause a lot of beachballs for me, though firefox does as well sometimes. And often when I've got the beachball, I can't interact with anything. I can't switch to another app, I can't pull up the dock. The whole computer is just locked for a few seconds. My XP machine never does that to me.
3
you get beachballs if the system is looking for some network stuff.
I used to have appleshare network points come up at login. If the server was switched off it would cause all types of hangs and odd behaviour. The finder is old and needs to be consigned to history. I'm looking forward to Snow Leopard and a new, properly designed Finder.
1
Why - in 2009 no less - should network latency cause my entire UI to lock up?
Does snow leopard actually fix this?
2
- What the heck were you doing to your Mac to provoke a Kernel Panic? I've never, ever seen OSX crash. Then again, I've never seen Vista crash either. Are you trying to enter the Konami code by repeatedly inserting and removing USB devices in a morse-code pattern or something?
I've seen both windows and OS X crash with blue screens / kernel panics. When Windows bluescreens and reboots I get a nice report why it failed. When my macbook pro kernel paniced I saw nothing besides a black screen that told me to restart.
- What applications were you loading? The only thing that gives me a beachball is Firefox (not even Photoshop—it puts up a loading screen for a minute and a half, but no beachball.)
growl, everything embedding flash, X11, emacs, openoffice, keynote, my wireless connection manager for 3G, itunes, last.fm plugin. I guess pretty much every application gave me the beachball.
2
I guess pretty much every application gave me the beachball.
I suppose this is what the transition to dual-core processors fixed. Everyone who's talking about constant beachballs had a Mac from more than a year or two ago, I suspect.
0
Nope, the ones in my lab are dual-core.
1
My mac mini will reboot sponteaneously from time to time....
I'll be working and then BOOM, black screen, and that damn sound of the Apple booting up.
Always related to iTunes. What shit software that is.
1
Final Cut used to kernel panic a lot with certain hardware configurations. Once you learn what doesn't work its pretty easy to install a system that has a 99.9999999999% uptime ratio.
Almost all kernel panics that I've experienced on test machines that were not properly configured were because of a hardware video capture card driver/quicktime version conflict.
That being said, outside of that I've only seen kernel panics when the hardware itself begins to go.. and even then the machine usually compensates before a panic occurs. We had one box blow its GPU, and it continued displaying the monitor in 800x600 resolution for 6 hours before we realized that the card was fried.
I'd say the same circumstances apply to our windows machines, but the quality of the software running on windows boxes seams to be a little more suspect most of the time.
0
she says something like I want one that doesn't crash, have viruses, or gives me headaches
[...]
Oh, and we all remember that Virus in iLife? I think? Something on BitTorrent that had a Mac Virus in it.
That was a root-kit distributed as a trojan—it's not a virus unless it "infects" further on its own.
Given that Apple tends to target "people who just want it to work, without worrying about technical details" as one of their main demographics, I think it's fair to assume that when they mention "viruses, or [something that] gives me headaches", it's a catchall term for any malicious program, whether virus, worm, trojan, etc.
0
A trojan horse is basically unstoppable regardless of platform, because its "exploit" is social engineering. Saying that Macs have headaches because of trojan horses is like saying Macs have headaches because you have to plug them into a power cable every once in a while. Electricity, and social engineering: both "just the way computers work."
0
Right, so if Apple advertised that their products were superior to PCs because PCs require electricity, I'd consider that advertisement misleading as well.
Fortunately, they don't do that, so I can restrict my ranting to their advertisement misleadingly implying that Macs don't suffer from malicious programs.
3
Except, Apple fosters a culture that believes they are invincible and discourages users from being proactive with their security.
2
Upvoted for Konami Code.
-1
THE MACS AT MY COLLEGE KERNEL PANIC ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I GUESS THEY DIDNT UPDATE THEM? I GUESS THEY DON'T 'JUST WORK' OUT OF THE BOX? ALSO, SARAFI AND ANY JAVA APP GIVES ME THE BEACH BALL. ALSO THE MATH APP THEY USE AT SCHOOL AND TEXT PAD AND OPEN OFFICE.... ANYTHING REALLY THAT TAKES LONGER THEN 1 SECOND TO LOAD.
-6
ANY JAVA APP GIVES ME THE BEACH BALL
Java will do that on any OS. And what is the point of bold text and caps?
-1
Check his name, smartypants.
5
It sounds like something really strange happened to them—dirty power silently damaging the HD and RAM sticks over time, perhaps, or chronic inadequate cooling. That, or they've been "upgraded" to new OS version after new OS version without respect for the minimum requirements sliding up over time.
-2
THEY DON'T UPDATE THEM. THEY GOT THEM, PLUGGING THEM IN, AND THEN LET THEM GO. THE 'IT' SAYS "MACS JUST WORK OUT OF THE BOX, LOLZ, YOU DON'T HAVE TO UPDATE THEM LIKE STUPID PCS"
-3
THE MACS AT MY COLLEGE
Well, there's your problem.
-4
MACS ARE BETTER AT EDUCATION AND GRAPHICS PROGRAMING? YES?! THAT IS WHAT MY GRAPHICS SCHOOLS SAYS. THE WINDOWS XP ONCES WORK FINE
-1
"Not to mention Apple's ads are completely inaccurate and misleading."
that pretty much sums it up.
15
I've been using Mac OS X since the Public Beta and I can count the number of times I've had an actual Kernel Panic on one hand.
5
Good for you, and I can count the number of blue screens I've had on one hand since using Vista.
Vista: Once, I just reformatted and was installing 2 games, nvidia drivers, and windows updates at the same time. It didn't like that.
7 RC2: Once, I accidentally kicked the side of my computer while it was running, causing it to blue screen. I knocked something loose.
2
Once I dropped a ceramic magnet on an old Macintosh LC (that was the Low Cost model from the early 90s) that I had left the case off of. With a THWUNK it stuck directly to the spinning hard disk. I feared the worst, but after removing the magnet and checking the data on the disk(ooh, all of 80 MB I believe it was) I had not one hiccup. This isn't really related to the argument, but your mention of crashing your computer by kicking it just reminded me of this.
1
Yeah but dislodging a crucial piece of hardware is different than sticking a magnet to your HDD.
1
Not to mention Apple's ads are completely inaccurate and misleading.
Right now they are pretending that the "copy/paste" feature in the iPhone 3.0 is "groundbreaking". You should see their commercials here in the UK. Welcome to 2001, Apple.
FWIW, they've been bitch-slapped repeatedly in the UK as commercials MUST be honest. They have to have a whole heap of disclaimers at the bottom now and several of their ads have been banned outright.
3
I'm running snow leopard and I haven't seen a kernel panic in years (on windows either for that matter).
1
Wow. That's quite a feat there considering Snow Leopard isn't even released to the public yet.
1
I'm a developer.
Developer seeds have been around for some time (and are coming out more and more frequently). Point is - kernel panics are awfully rare even on beta releases these days.
1
I'm no Apple fanboy, but isn't Apple historically successful because of their marketing department? Their products now are pretty damned good, and you probably won't see those problems these days, but their real strengths are aesthetics and marketing.
Wanting their (misleading) ads shown and their competitors' ads pulled is a selfish yet very business-like (and very apple-like) thing to do. It'd be dumb not at least to try if they thought they had a chance.
1
Really? Just last year my new iPod died. My wife's macbook, also about a year old, has a terrible time connecting to wireless networks and when it does connect, rarely gets half the speed I do on my PC. Every single apple product I've owned has been a lemon in one way or another. PC's aren't perfect either, but in my experience they generally last as long as they are useful for, and get replaced mostly because the technology has surpassed them enough to make it worthless to fix.
1
My little brother has purchased and iPod 5.5G and put two new motherboards in it during the time that I've owned my Zen Vision:M. His 5.5G is a real POS.
1
[deleted]
1
Not to mention Apple's ads are completely inaccurate and misleading.
That's been their schtick for as long as they've been making these ads (at least). Their opening line is a lie unto itself.
"Hi, I'm a PC"
"And I'm a Mac".
So Macs aren't Personal Computers then? Funny, I wasn't looking to buy a server or a mainframe...
1
Most people don't know it, but there's an easy way to fix pretty much every beach ball when you start seeing them. Disk Utility -> Fix Permissions. It takes about four minutes.
When some programs get installed or updated, they screw up the filesystem permissions. (I'm looking at you, Adobe.) It's not the death of your operating system, but it dramatically increases access times when programs try to access libraries that they're supposedly not intended to access. Leopard doesn't automatically repair bad permissions although it's clearly aware of them. Snow Leopard might address this.
1
Eh, for the most part, yes it true, not lies. If you know what you are doing on a Mac you aren't looking at a spinning wheel. And if you don't know what you are doing on computers, well I don't want to argue with you.
0
I'm going to ignore your other BS for a moment because I want to correct you. iLife did not have a virus. There was a cracked copy of iLife floating around on BitTorrent that had a trojan horse.
0
I think you're confusing the iLife virus as a trojan, go google the definitions.
I remember back in the Windows XP SP0 days. All you had to do is, literally, plug your computer to the internet (not behind a router), and you would have 10 different viruses in < 5 seconds. Then I would have to immediately reformat/reinstall and remember to plug it behind a router...
0
Well yeah. Windows XP didn't have a firewall built in, and if you aren't behind a router, then you're just asking for trouble.
Wasn't it just announced that there was an exploit to gain root access to a Linux machine using a vulnerability in OpenSSH? It isn't just Windows machines that are vulnerable.
1
"Not to mention Apple's ads are completely inaccurate and misleading."
their so called genius's instore arnt very smart either. i was playing around on one instore and had the terminal up just "cd"ing around the filesystem and one came up to me telling me to stop hacking the system iw as like im not hacking it, he then asked what that was that i was on i said the terminal he looked confused at me. "not much of a genius are you" i said he started to have a go at me then told me to leave or he would get security i then put in rm -rf * and walked out i heard him go shit as he saw the screen scrolling to bad it didnt delete anything
0
Yeah exactly. Steve Jobs's culture at it's finest. Anyway, the only way this story could make Apple look somewhat normal is if the Microsoft ads had mentioned the specific price of a specific configuration that is now cheaper than what is stated in the ad. But I don't think Microsoft mentions any specific prices for specific apple machines (right?) so Apple really has no leg to stand on here, other than eating their own dog food. Sweet justice.
0
that was pirated software. At most you can call it a trojan. No OS can shield you from that. As for virus exploits for the Mac I haven't had any yet. Not that I believe the Mac OS is as safe as some people think…
-1
Its not lies, here's what happened to me.
I was writing a paper on the PC, and it was like bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep, and then, like, half of my paper was gone. And I was like huh? It devoured my paper. It was a really good paper. And then I had to write it again and I had to do it fast so it wasn't as good. Its kind of a bummer.
-1
Never get the spinning beach ball, have seen two virii for Macs in 30 years, and think bitorrents are shit. You get what you deserve.
-1
I might point out that my Windows 7 RC build can't shut down without having a kernel panic, whereas I've only seen one in OSX since 10.1. (USB driver bug.) That said, certain OS X apps (cough safari cough) can't visit four pages without beach-balling.
EDIT: Oh, and calling out one malware (not even a virus—it didn't spread) that required people to install something they got off of bitorrent isn't exactly a good opposition to an unpatched windows visiting random torrents.
-1
[deleted]
1
Chillout fanboy. FYI RC stands for release candidate.
Apples software is not as flawless as you claim.
1
That said, certain OS X apps (cough safari cough) can't visit four pages without beach-balling.
and
Apples software is not as flawless as you claim.
That's not saying much.... I'm not a fanboy; I'm just saying that A) Windows isn't exactly kernel panic free (who can blame it? It has thousands upon thousands of 3rd party drivers) and B) pointing out one "virus" (that actually isn't a virus) when windows has many, many, many times that number of viruses, trojans, adwares, malwares, et cetera, isn't exactly a solid argument.
0
Misleading advertising? You mean, they made ads which make their products look exaggeratedly good? Ooh, the gall of those capitalist swine. I expect advertisers to always tell me the truth, never exaggerate, and never try to convince me to buy their products.
-6
You forgot /sarcasm
4
correct, i detected no sarcasm tags in the parent of your comment.
initiating +1 upvote.
beep beep boop.
3
Oh, and we all remember that Virus in iLife? I think? Something on BitTorrent that had a Mac Virus in it.
It's hard to call something a virus when you have to put your password in to give it administrator permissions first.
Also, the notable difference between Microsoft and Apple for viruses is the fact that Apple gives free updates to fix the holes in their operating system and viruses. Microsoft leaves gaping holes in their code then expects you to go to a 3rd party for security.
edit: Oh cool, downvoted for telling the actual truth about the Mac virus, fag it up fanboys, I own both
-6
You realize that's how Windows viruses work too. Windows makes you Administrator by default. So anything that runs can do whatever it wants to your system.
Vista addressed this with UAC, which people hated.
Try this, get a copy of Windows Server and install "Internet Explorer Enhanced Security" and try to get a virus on it. It's near impossible to do. You thought UAC was bad? You haven't seen anything till you've tried "IE Enhanced Security" (It's worse than it sounds)
10
Yes, I know. I own a MacBook Pro and have been building gaming rigs since I was 14. The difference with mac is you have to click the virus, and then put in your password and hit next before anything bad happens.
Also, you are talking about a handful of Mac viruses ever Vs. tens of thousands every year for PC. Even if this is because Mac has a smaller market share, the point still stands.
Most of the time with Windows if you download the virus and it has already copied itself a thousand fucking times and downgraded YOUR permission to stop you from deleting it, and this is before you have even clicked it.
You can leave a Mac connected to the internet fresh out of the box and not have to worry. The same cannot be said for a PC. Even if this is because Mac has a smaller market share, the point, again, still stands.
1
How about you... don't download questionable shit and actually use your brain while using your computer...?
Problem solved. Your argument fails.
4
And that is the major problem with windows. It is meant to be a single user system. *nix and by extension macs are meant to be multi user systems.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say security on windows is impossible. I'm just saying it isn't easy or intuitive because the default administrator has so much power.
0
Microsoft has them by the balls on this one, economy is bad, and price point is key. When you compare apple for win notebooks with ram/hd space/cpu speed etc for your money/value.
Apple could show commericals that the software is *worth the extra cost, but that isn't going to do any good when regular notebooks have similar software , for a lot less.
Apple could win this with a $700 notebook , but thats what, half price? They would feel the burn
66
That's the thing about having 10% market share. You only need 10% of the potential customers to be doing fine in order for you to be somewhat shielded from the economy. Luxury goods don't necessarily take the same sort of hit in a down economy because the market for luxury goods is built on the notion that most people aren't buying them anyway.
The problem with trying to compete with them as you suggest is that the people you're trying to get to come back and buy a Windows PC aren't buying RAM/HD/CPU. They're buying two things: elegant design and OS X. As long as Apple can make the compelling argument that their OS and software stack is better, and they can wrap it in a gorgeous brick of aluminum, they'll find enough buyers to keep them comfortably supplied with black turtlenecks.
22
I don't think it works like that. If you normally get 10% of customers, and then the total number of customers drops by, say, 25% because the economy's bad, you'll have 25% fewer customers as well, but still 10% of the total market.
You argue that Apple has a reputation as a luxury brand, and perhaps their core customer base is less affected by the economic downturn than the overall market, but I don't think that's the case. I think Macs are really just moderate luxury goods- a little bit more expensive, but something the average PC shopper might splurge on if they care about industrial design and can spare the difference in price. Those kinds of purchases are the first things to go when the situation looks tenuous.
8
When they tried a luxury tax on yachts, the yachtmakers all went out of business because the rich people decided not to buy frivolous products anymore.
At a certain point, people will realize that an underpowered aluminum block isn't a good value for their dollar - and yes, most rich people do actually care about value for the dollar, which is how most of them got rich in the first place.
/typing this on an iBook G4
3
True, but if you notice snow leopard has no major UI changes, compared to win7 vs vista. I'm no fanboy, but MS gave everyone the Win 7 RC and 1 year to try it free, lots after that time will buy it, if the price is affordable. We can easily agree win7 is much faster than vista was, at least that will be a selling point. Plus those vista to win7 upgrade cupons.
I would love apple to make a $700 notebook , or even a $700 mid range tower, I would settle for a far cheaper mac mini as well. Say $350.00 for the latest model
4
Yes, and that was a really clever move on their part. It seems like Win7 was going to be a success anyway, but giving away the RC for a year really was genius.
I had heard that the appropriately cheap Vista->7 upgrade price was only available if you preorder sometime soon, and that once 7 comes out, the price will go back to a bit higher level. I don't remember the details though, and it's entirely possible I'm blowing smoke.
Anyway, if Apple happens to be in the mood to grant wishes, I don't even care about a cheaper one. I'd pay current prices for the "Mac Pro for the Common Man". Keep the MegaHyperXeons and the 16 ram slots and just give me a Core2 Quad on a normal motherboard in a box without a monitor and charge me $1299. Resist the omnipresent urge to switch to a new display-out technology that your cousin's friend's uncle "almost has working in his garage" and maybe sell me a 24" monitor that doesn't require mortgage approval, and I'll be a happy, happy bald man.
7
Regarding the upgrade option, I think it depends on the manufacturer, but the Asus machine I bought about a week and a half ago came with advertising promising upgrades on any pc bought between now and 2010 (several months after 7's debut).
1
I'm perfectly happy with Leopard. I wouldn't want a major UI change. As of now it's near perfect.
Snow Leopard is tightening up a bit, speeding up a lot, and it revamped one of the two mediocre Mac applications, Quicktime, adding a few things I'll love to have (and fixing my main gripe with the other mediocre Mac app, iDVD).
Also $30 for upgrading is essentially nothing.
As for pricing of Macs overall: I'd rather pay a premium to get a beautiful product. If Apple released cheaper, slightly shoddier products, I'd lose faith in them as a company. As it stands now, I can recommend my family almost anything from Apple and it'll match certain standards of quality. I wish that was my relationship with more companies.
-1
But if 10% was the market share that was prepared to pay the extra (and actually wanted a mac) then the question is whether or not that 10% has decreased or not. The other 90% couldn't afford it / didn't want them anyway.
1
Starbucks coffee is considered a luxury item, look at how they've had to close down multiple shops.
edit: And now they have McDonald's coffee to compete with, which sells at half the price almost.
1
It might be a bit late to point this out now, but it's entirely possible that I'm full of shit. :)
Edit: If I change my username to Perron, can we start a giant thread that converges to a fixed point?
1
You know, if buying something was simply a matter of picking the one with the biggest numbers and the lowest cost, I should just date fat chicks
14
You ever feed a fat chick? There's nothing low cost about it.
16
Potatoes and beans, man. Clearly you've never been fat on a $20/week grocery budget before.
0
Amen. In another 10-20 years that will be all that's left.
-1
number of sit-ups per session vs. total mass in stones
-2
I would love to see Microsoft up the ante on the commercials by showing what the money saved by buying a PC do for the customer.
Like using the laptop at the top of the Eiffel Tower, or on the beach at Waikiki ... that would be a twist in the knife!
6
Want an Apple Netbook? No luck.
Want an Apple Tablet? No luck.
Want a desktop where you're not paying the Xeon tax or monitor tax? No luck.
You want anything that Jobs doesn't deem relevant? No luck.
I love Apple's OS X. I am not a huge fan of their product lines. $1281 for the 13" MacBook Pro (including tax with the student discount) is way too fucking much.
5
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0
Just wait till the Google netbooks come out...
People think this is a direct threat to Microsoft, but it is as serious a threat to Apple. One of Apple's appeals are that they are machines that are (relatively) easy to use. But they are damn expensive. The Google netbook promises to be both simple enough for the casual user AND extremely cheap by comparison.
2
Ha. Do you know how much profit they make of the average apple product?
1
Well for example Iphones 3GS, they make quite a bit of profit. So I can imagine for macbooks its the same.
6
Apple could win this with a $700 notebook , but thats what, half price? They would feel the burn
Maybe not. If they could sell more units, they would gain market share and perhaps become more appealing to the rest of the market.
1
But then people dropping 2.5k per macbook pro would slowly wane off because its not cool if everyone has one.
6
[deleted]
1
You say that like its a good thing.
1
Which is fucked up, because it's an artificial scarcity. They should learn from the iPod's success. Almost everyone has an iPod and people still seem them as an exclusive/trendy product.
1
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1
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1
I think MSFT got your memo...... about three years ago. If you think Google is sneaking by announcing a new OS publicly and if you think that the bing campaign wasn't because of Google, then you, my friend, are naive.
1
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1
The Bing ads are working, the Windows ads are also apparently working. Who cares what agency they are from.
The Windows ads work because they play to MSFT strengths-- pricing. I haven't seen a bing ad, so I have no idea what they are about. I do know that MSFT would not have renamed their search engine and redone their engine if they were top in search.
Suggesting that MSFT ignore their competition is foolish. Write better and people will pay more attention to what you say.
1
Plus, if money is a big deal, people are gonna probably ask around for advice, and if they have even one computer-literate friend, that friend is going to mention that you can get the software for free via bittorrent, so the only price consideration at this point is how expensive the hardware is.
Even if you pirate Windows and Office, Microsoft "wins" in the end, because they don't make money off of individuals buying their software; instead, they make money through lock-in due to the network-effect.
1
Actually - no it's a $300 difference from the macbook 13"
1
Apple could just win by touting that they won the PCWorld best Windows laptop award.
-2
The same PCWorld where an editor left (and later returned) when they wouldn't run his "10 Things We Hate About Apple" story because the PCWorld editor thought that it would have an impact on Apple's advertising?
Also, the PCWorld article actually said it was "...fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year..." (2007) which also happened to be the last one they tested (at the time), had the most recent hardware, and in regular computing fashion was knocked off a few weeks later?
11
Accuracy isn't really relevant, I'm sure they could use that award to fight back quite nicely.
0
Accuracy never is really relevant in those Apple ads, is it?
1
Too bad these adds are misleading. I'm not defending apple at all, I just want to point something out...
If you go spec for spec, Macs and PCs cost the same. For real. The laptops in the commercial are the highest end newest Macs and the PCs are 1-2 year old low end models.
-2
Misleading, yes - but spec for spec, PCs cost less. For example, I could get the 17" MBP ($2,500) from Dell for around $2,200, with all the same specs (2.8 GHz Dual-Core Processor, 4 GB RAM, 1 GB Graphics Processor, 500 GB HDD vs. 2.8 GHz Dual-Core Processor, 4 GB RAM, 256+512 MB Graphics Processor, 500 GB HDD). Also, consider that the 17" MBP only very recently got a price cut - it was previously $2,800 (with only a 2.66 GHz Dual-Core Processor and a 320 GB HDD).
Sure, if you add the cost of an aluminum unibody case, a little button that determines battery life, a shiny (glare-inducing) screen, and a trendy DVD drive, then the costs may equalize - but the four specs I listed are 99.9% of what's relevant in a computer.
4
but the four specs I listed are 99.9% of what's relevant in a computer.
I'm going to disagree with you. For me, if I'm trying to figure out the fastest way to run my custom simulation code, I'm going to look at the specs you mention.
For my mom, all she wants to know is how quickly and easily she can burn DVDs from her digital video camera. Certainly, hardware capability is relevant, but the primary factor that she would cite as being the difference between "good" and "bad" is going to be software related. If she thinks Pinnacle Studio and Windows is better than Final Cut (or more likely, iMovie) and OS X, then the Windows machine will be better. If it takes an extra ten minutes tacked onto a two hour render, that will be of secondary importance.
This is why the Apple software experience is such an advantage. For most people, it's the only relevant deciding point.
0
Eh, you forgot the operating system that isn't a piece of shit.
Oh shit, my fanboy is showing! Better get of reddit before the haters downvote me to hell for not liking PCs. Seriously if you hate apple that much just please try linux! Stop giving in to big load of shit OS.
-5
I'm writing this message from 10.5 (on a 17" MacBook Pro, mind you), so I have no idea where you think I am criticizing you for your OS preference. I was not writing in support of PCs or Macs; I was writing to inform you that your statement was false. PCs are cheaper, ceteris paribus. Each person has their own personal preferences, of course, but if you want to measure "equal" computers, you would use the four specs I listed above.
Since I dual-boot in XP (only because I happened to have a copy, not because I was shunning Vista), I can assure you that it is not a piece of shit, and is every bit as useful. Since I have another laptop that runs Gloria, I think I'm qualified to tell you that if you think one OS is infinitely superior than the rest, you are gravely misinformed.
2
Absolute 100% baloney. I was just in an Apple store and looked at some of their better models. $1500-2000 for a dual-core, 2 GB RAM, 640 GB HDD computer with an integrated graphics card. I can do that for literally half that price at worst with a PC. When you buy Apple, you're paying for a different operating system and usually an 'all-in-one' monitor/computer, not for some premium product. They want you to think that Macs are better, but they just use Intel parts that even the lowest-end Dells include. If you want a shiny plastic box of shit, buy a Mac. You want actual control over your computer's guts? You want to pay a reasonable price for a reasonable product? Build a PC.
iPhones, iPods, etc. - go with Apple. That's the only stuff they make that isn't overwhelmingly eclipsed by a competitor.
3
You want actual control over your computer's guts? You want to pay a reasonable price for a reasonable product? Build a PC.
Just gotta LOL at that one.
Control and reasonable? You want linux. Next in line comes a Mac. PCs are not reasonable or controllable machines.
-4
I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I bought a Dell laptop two years ago for $1200. 1.8ghz dual core, 2gb ram, 8600m gt.
A friend of mine has a Macbook she got about two years ago for $1200. 1.8ghz dual core, 1gb ram, integrated graphics.
My laptop also has more USB ports and a bigger harddrive.
Nothing against Apple, my friend's lappy is much nicer looking ha, but spec for spec, PCs always get me more.
1
Apple does not make low-spec laptops. The entry level macbook is in the mid-high spec range of most other companies. If you're looking for a cheap computer, a mac never was and likely never will be what you are considering.
What nobody seems to factor in in these price comparisons is resale value. Apple is a well known, trusted brand. Due to this and to a slower product refresh cycle than the industry norm, a mac a few years down the line still possesses some value whereas any other brand is worthless. I'll be able to unload my 15" macbook pro for $800 or so, three years after I bought it. You think I could get $800 for a three year old dell with the same specs? No way. I would probably have trouble giving it away for free. The resale value on the desktops is even better, which is a good thing for apple since the imacs are a bit overpriced.
I'm just tired of people only factoring in purchase price when they make economic comparisons - you have to model for the entire life of the product. This taken into account, macs are typically a better economic decision in the long run, regardless of what cool software they come with.
-2
no, the entry level laptop has the same specs as my $700 hp laptop i bought a year ago.
1
I call bullshit on that statement. I just cruised over to the HP site, and looked at their performance model offering. The $799 model has an older processor, with less L2 cache, a slower FSB and an overall slower clock speed. It also has a crappy Intel integrated graphics and the same amount of RAM. That is their current offer, and its $200 less than the entry level MB. There is no way that you got a year old laptop for $700 that matches the entry level Macbook, especially considering that the current generation does not match the MB.
0
seriously??
all of these machines are cheaper than the macbook, and most of them have better specs http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/series_can.do?storeName=computer_store&landing=notebooks&a1=Category
0
It may be nearly half the cost - but how long does that piece of junk last? Worse yet, you can only play one operating system on it - the wrong one.
-3
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4
Excellent. Like I said, people should use what they feel comfortable with. I like desktops and am happy to be in the minority in that regard.
1
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4
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2
Really who says? I can run osx86 leopard just fine, linux and windows.
I'm not against apple or macs, at all, Other than the macs are just overpriced
0
I stand corrected - didn't know there was an emulator for Windows. I think people should use what system they feel comfortable with. A general rule of thumb - in my experience, creative folks tend to favor Apple.
-4
You know what's funny? I was on an airplane next to a graphics designer. He says everyone in his industry uses Macs because all of the software are on Macs. Furthermore, he thinks people who ( are not in the design industry) like to pretend that they are creative and buy Macs are compelete tools.
3
Its not an emulator ;)
0
gsearch "hackintosh." You can build one that runs leopard without modification for just under $500.
0
Uhh...cheapest Macbook is $1000. $700 is more than half.
-8
Maybe $1000 for a 13inch "macbook" I believe the real 15inch macbooks are about $1,400
11
So, you're saying that the 13 inch notebook sold by Apple does not count as a notebook? Interesting argument.
-2
[deleted]
1
He wrote "Notebook" not "Netbook". But then again, all of Apple's laptops are essentially netbooks.
1
Not really? might as well be a netbook its small, I would think most people with $1000.00 to spend at apple would probably get the baseline 15inch model instead
0
HE'S SAYING NO ONE WANTS A SHITTY 13 INCH APPLE WHEN YOU CAN GET A 17 [OR +] FOR CHEAPER
BTW, MY GF GOT A 13 INCH 'NETBOOK' FOR A THIRD OF THAT - AND IT HAS A BETTER CPU AND MORE RAM
-2
Haha...the 13" is the only Macbook. The Macbook Pro starts at $1200 for 13", $1700 for 15". Both 13" (The Pro and non-Pro) are good computers.
Oh, and as far as the "$100 price cut". The Macbook Air was slashed $1200.
-5
I dont care what they call them, they are all about $500.00 over priced
15
The $1000 13" Macbook has roughly the same specs as the $500 13" Dell Inspiron, or the 15" HP, or the $500 15" Toshiba, or the $500 15" Lenovo.
Hell, for $1000, you can get a sweet X series Thinkpad Ultraportable rather than the lowest rung Macbook.
6
will it give me the same level of satisfaction? because 500$ or 1000$ are not much when compared to having to endure years of frustration.
1
If a laptop without OS X gives you "years of frustration" you should go to the local community college and takes some computer classes.
1
Eh, as a guy who owns a macbook pro and three ipods I must say this...
I can't wait till microsoft releases the new zune.
I have never been a mac fan boy.. and the mbp has left little to be desired.. (I just upgraded to a 600 dollar dell with more than double the stats... granted the mbp is 3 years old.. but still..) and I absolutely love my ipod touch.. but with that said.. I will switch mainly because apple charged me to do a software upgrade. The industry standard is for that type of shit to come free. If it was a new os I would understand.. but this is an upgrade, and I only bought it because I wanted to use a2dp bluetooth headphones... which originally apple locked in the bluetooth. So I paid apple to unlock something that they went out of their way to lock in the first place...
Fu apple.
I only hope that Nike will support some sort of nike+ thing on the Zune.
62
Zune HD looks awesome
24
What microsoft needs to do is release a quality media player on mac and have it support Zune. Then I'd be interested.
15
Check out doubleTwist by none other than DVD Jon.
For extra amusement, check out how they posted an ad on a wall shared with an Apple Store in SF: http://nanocr.eu/2009/06/09/the-cure-for-iphone-envy-the-story-behind-the-doubletwist-ad/
11
thanks! had no idea about doubletwist!
1
Do you happen to know if it supports the Zune? It wasn't listed on their 'Supported Devices' page. Thanks
1
[deleted]
1
I agree, when I used my mbp I always wanted to pick up a zune but couldnt as it was not compatible.
2
It'd be nice if they released it outside of the Americas too.
1
There are other mp3 players besides the Zune and iPod you know...
2
Yeah, but you can't be awesome and trendy with a Zen or Cowon.
3
yea there are, but the support and addons for the competition is lacking.
0
So Apple behaves like a nasty but beautiful chick. Dell is the hardworking but uglier and more stupid girl (runs Windows). Which is better?
I have a MacBook Air. It is a weak laptop (speed) but somehow it is just right for movies, web and downloading pics from the digital camera. It shines when I travel because it is small and light. I have seen many people being totally mesmerized when they saw it but bulked at the price though. I could afford it and I am happy with it.
1
I'm glad that you like it. I personally would have never spent a dime on the mac book air. The fact that it doesn't have a cd rom drive and costs well over a grand for poor stats? I would have saved my money and bought a nice netbook.. but thats me.
1
There are sweeping underlying changes in Snow Leopard. That's like saying Windows 98 -> Windows XP was "Just an Upgrade" because the windows still looked the same
1
98 to xp is not an upgrade, that is a new os. tiger to leopard or whatever the mac naming convention is, is also a new os, not an upgrade.
iphone software 2.0 to 3.0 is an upgrade.
1
granted the mbp is 3 years old
That's like comparing old apples to freshly picked oranges.
1
I would totally believe you, but the stats on the new mbp's are still not as good as the stats on my new dell.
0
Uh, really? What model of Dell did you get for $600?
2
Okay, now I know you're bullshitting. That's funny, especially considering the specs on this $600 Dell are comparable to my 3 year-old MacBook (which isn't even a pro). And now you say this the new MBPs aren't as good as your Dell?
You do realize that "double the stats" does not mean "double the RAM" - don't you.
0
Perhaps my exaggeration was a bit overblown.. but the point remains. My pc is a damn good machine and was extremely cheaper.
1
Yea, but the zune doesn't sync with my mac. If it did, I would buy it in a heart beat.
1
What do you mean when you say...
I wanted to use a2dp bluetooth headphones... which originally apple locked in the bluetooth.
...?
1
0
So how can MS push a Zune software upgrade for free?
Complete BS.
15
It's about how their accounting department handles it. They push updates for both the iPhone and Apple TV which are accounted for following the "subscription model." The costs and profits from an iPhone are accounted for over a period of time.
There seems to be three possibilities, then, for the Zune:
- They're using a subscription model
- They're interpreting the accounting laws differently
- As sea5ons suggests, perhaps they don't release major upgrades to them? Not a Zune owner so I don't know. I imagine bug updates are treated differently, but all these things are open to interpretation by lawyers, etc.
3
The Zune updates were pretty substantial, adding games, changing some functionality and interface, etc. It was a big update and a nice one that applied across all Zunes, even the first gen ones to third gen. The article is very vague and sounds kind of like it is just an excuse. I was never charged for my updates. In fact, the only reason I never bought a Touch was because I wasn't willing to shell out a ton then pay more for additional features. I'd love to see the accounting laws referenced because I have seen major software, firmware, and driver updates released without a charge. Sounds like an attempt to cover Apple's shebs (look at the author of the article, a MacWorld writer).
5
They do release major updates to the Zune - quite a few people bought cheap Zunes from Woot and were glad to upgrade it to the much superior later firmware.
I think "accounting rules" are a flimsy excuse, because many, many other companies provide upgrades to their software. I mean, if accounting rules forced companies to charge for upgrades then Valve would be totally screwed.
2
I think the law only applies if customers are affected. Since the Zune has zero, MS is still safe.
0
Honest question: Has MS released new features with Zune software upgrades? Or has that always come tied to new hardware or SKU?
Also, no one held a gun to b00ks head and forced him to upgrade his iPod touch.
In spite of what I just said, I agree that Apple should make those free updates.
-3
You are correct no one held a gun to my head.. but the feature I wanted came with an upgrade, one that you could argue should have been included in the original.
And besides.. software upgrades are usually released to improve software.. which you shouldnt have to pay for, you know, since you paid for the software in the beginning.
6
Yes, they have. Wi-Fi was included on the first models, so the later new features were all software and everybody got them.
4
And which part of that came as a surprise to Apple? They knew very well what the deal was when they chose how to account for their devices.
Plus, charging 19.99 when 0.99 would have satisfied the legal requirement clearly shows it's about fleecing their customers. Charging for security updates - poppycock.
1
Makes no sense.
-1
On the other hand, your fully articulated and cogent argument makes perfect sense. This has been written about a fair amount, and while tech press isn't great I haven't seen any grand refutation of what Apple has claimed. They've claimed this in their quarterly conference calls, no less.
-1
It requires no argument to make the point; it should be that fucking obvious. Why is it that I can get XP service pack upgrade without getting nickel and dimed but when Apple does it it's a fucking $20 dollar accounting rule. Give me a fucking break. Apple is the only company that I have ever dealt with that charges you for software upgrades on consumer electronics: I dare you to name one other consumer electronics company that does this. Yea, didn't think so.
But lets take Apples word for it and defend it like a fanboy shill.
Kill yourself.
2
COMPLETE rubbish...as one of the posts above says, the accounting rules prescribe how they handle the $$s that come in. if they want to give away software of course they can. accounting rules tell you how you need to report your business not how to friggen run it.
so really its just FUD to try and gouge money out of their consumers. I mean really, out of the OS3.0 software for the touch, the only really compelling thing was the unlocking of bluetooth so that you can use A2DP--in effect paying to unlock a chip that you supposedly bought when you purchased the device in the first place.
-1
What software upgrade of yours from apple wasn't free?
The upgrade from Tiger to leopard? because that's not free with windows either... unless you have Vista.
0
Apple charges for upgrading the iPod Touch OS. Corresponding upgrades to the iPhone are free, but the argument is that the cost of the upgrades is subsidized with your cell contract.
Apple has done this twice, and charged $10 each time. So assuming he'd bought a first-gen iPod touch, Apple has bilked him for $20 in optional software upgrades.
Yeah, I think it's shitty that Apple kind of treats iPod Touch users as secondary class citizens next to the iPhone, but in the grand scheme of things a $10 upgrade license once a year or so is neither unprecedented nor unreasonable.
4
Well that's something I never knew about. I can defend apple as far as their business practices come into play, that is grounds I can not touch.
1
Yea my bad, I should have made that a little more apparent on what software upgrade I was talking about.. I took it for granted that people knew what I was referring to.
1
Yes it's because of Sarbanes-Oxley Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes-Oxley_Act
Or so they say.
1
The iPod Touch. It runs the same software as the iPhone, which gets OS upgrades distributed for free. To apply a major OS release (1.0 -> 2.0; 2.0 -> 3.0) Apple charges iPod Touch users something like $20.
2
That's a PR disaster. Steve can be hardheaded sometimes.
1
Disaster is probably too strong of a word. I'd be annoyed too, but I can't see the whole consumer electronics world rising up and demanding Zunes over it.
Anyway, they claim they have no choice. There are apparently some accounting regulations that require them to charge for updates to a device that's not on a service plan. The explanation is shaky at best, and no one thus far seems to be terribly impressed with it. You'd think if that were their only motivation, they'd just charge a penny.
2
My favorite reader comment:
“We don't hate on Macs, we hate on the stupid arguments that are put forth by the Apple faithful, and their derision of anything non-Apple.
We hate the arguments that somehow Apple gives you better quality hardware for the higher prices, when the hardware is the same as any Windows computer.
We hate the arguments that Microsoft is evil for some reason, but when Apple does the same, it is perfectly fine (e.g. activation of Windows vs. activation of an iPhone, or how Intel had unique identifiers in their chips accessible by software, but when they do the same in the iPhone - not a problem).
We hate the arguments that Microsoft is evil when 10 year old hardware is not supported (such as when Vista was released), but when Apple cuts support for 3 year old printers in Leopard, it is the user's fault for not owning the latest hardware.
We hate the arguments that problems with 3rd party hardware drivers it is the fault of Microsoft, but when Apple has problems with 3rd party hardware drivers, it is the hardware manufacturer's fault.
We hate the arguments that Apple never has any problems, but when a problem appears (such as not being able to activate a phone for hours), the user is at fault for not knowing the proper way of using a Mac, just plain stupid, or hate.
We hate the arguments when Microsoft services go down for an hour or two (such as Zune last week), it is said Microsoft provides horrible service and it is a Engadget front page mockery of Microsoft. But when iTunes goes down (http://www.tuaw.com/2009/07/07/itunes-store-and-app-store-problems/) nothing is said, and it really is not a problem.
We hate the argument that before the iPhone, the number of applications available for a platform does not make a difference, it is the quality of the software. After the iPhone is released, all that matters is the number of applications available.
We hate the argument that somehow Apple hardware will last forever, but other computers last only a year or two (this argument is used in this very article). I am typing on a 5 year old Dell laptop, how long does an iPod last?
We hate the argument that somehow Microsoft limits user choice, when many people use non-Microsoft products. But when Apple limits choice (such as installing alternative browsers on an iPhone), it is in the user's best interest.
We hate the arguments that Microsoft keeps control over their products, but you need to jump through hoops just to develop for the iPhone.
We hate the arguments that Microsoft releases poor products that do not work and you need to wait for SP2 for it to be useful, is MobileMe working yet?
We hate the arguments that Microsoft does not deliver what was promised, Apple is just now delivering push notification - a year after it was promised.
We hate how some say everything was invented, created, designed, or innovated by Apple first, and everybody creates cheap knock-offs of Apple, when there is proof of it being done years before by other companies.
We hate the arguments that products such as Tablets, Netbooks, etc. are useless crap, but rumored products such as the Apple Tablet, or Netbook will be the savior of man.
We hate the argument that somehow opening a store, something that has existed for 1000s of years since somebody found they could trade a basket of vegetables for a chicken, is an Apple creation, and from now on no other company is permitted to open stores.
And, among the many others (but the last I will list), we hate the argument that somehow Apple is allowed to air commercials that lie about Microsoft and Apple's own products, but when Microsoft airs commercials that are true (a Windows computer is lower priced than an Apple computer), somehow Microsoft is evil and must stop now.
So no, we do not hate Apple - I have a Mac, an iPod, and iPhone. We just get sick of the pathetic fanboys who attack anybody who do not drink the kool-aid and do not give glowing reviews of anything Apple.”
57
tl;dr: We hate double standards.
8
And, among the many others (but the last I will list), we hate the argument that somehow Apple is allowed to air commercials that lie about Microsoft and Apple's own products, but when Microsoft airs commercials that are true (a Windows computer is lower priced than an Apple computer), somehow Microsoft is evil and must stop now.
Yeah specifically I remember the part where Apple criticizes MS for viruses, as if only Windows ever gets viruses.
2
So...some guy says at a conference that some other guys called him, said they were from Apple, and then "threatened" him?
And from this, not only did you take it at face value, but you use it as a cornerstone for a "Fuck you [something submitter dislikes]" post?
I think you revealed a lot more about your thought process than you might have wanted.
46
Amen. I was searching for a comment along these lines and I'm pretty sad I had to look so far down to find it. There's absolutely no sources other than "this MS exec says this happened". This, to me, is akin to saying "it must be true. It says so in the bible!"
9
Given the fact that Apple is very aggresive at protecting their brand, why would this be suprising? They opposed New York City from tradmarking a Green Apple for a "Green" New York. This type of communication between competitors happens all the time. Usually, the laughs remain inside the executive office or board room and are not made public unless a lawsuit is filed. Does it warrant the cursing of Apple, of course not they have a right and duty to protect their brand. But it does shed light on how hypocritical business practices are in the United States.
0
I didn't see anything about being "threatened". It's more about lawyers from one major company calling the COO of another major company asking him to pull commercials that are similar to their own (in the sense that it's a direct attack on the other company's product).
0
Apple is just too expensive for some of us less affluent people. >_>
44
I don't know why people are downvoting your truth. I upgrade my machines far less often than I should, but I save extra during that time to splurge on a mac. In my mind it's worth it, as most mac's don't need upgrading as often due to the way the software is designed... but there is definitely a trade off.
5
.In my mind it's worth it, as most mac's don't need upgrading as often due to the way the software is designed... but there is definitely a trade off.
Not saying that Macs aren't necessarily the best computer for you, but what did you mean by that. Windows machines don't need to be upgraded that often unless you're a gamer and always want the best possible hardware available.
10
I agree, I am not a big fan of all in one units like the iMac, but really wanted a desktop.
The Mac Pros are way out of my price range (£1,899), and the mac mini was ridiculously underpowered.
For the same price as a mac mini I got a much much faster computer, and it came with a screen.
3
Hackintosh.
2
i love my dell mini9 hackintosh! ;)
1
I never understood why the computer market is so extremely price sensitive. The base lowest model Kia, the Rio, costs $11,495 MSRP. The lowest priced Honda, the Civic Coupe, costs $15,305. I've never seen Kia owners telling Honda owners to stop saying they're satisfied with the product they have received because they're not 'affluent' enough to purchase one 0_o
2
honda doesnt run ads lying about how much kias suck.
6
in the case of iPods, they are built with planned obsolescence features like the non-user replaceable battery. you have to keep buying new ones again, and again. This increases the price sensitivity since it's a recurring transaction, instead of a one time.
2
*shrug*
It depends on how you count cost. I paid for a laptop that runs commercial software, cross-platform software, and a holy mother-load crap-ton of ported Unix and Linux software, all natively without virtualization or rebooting. It's solidly built, with an extremely high quality display. It's basically the only computer/software purchase I'll need to make for the next five years, discounting the games I'll buy. Plus, no hardware aggravation, no crazy crap vendor drivers (Dell, HP, Sony, etc), no crapware installed with the vendor drivers, and beautiful suspend-resume behavior in OS X.
I suppose I'm talking it up a bit, but I spend less on computers and software in the years since I bought a MBP than ever before.
1
[deleted]
0
No, not really. Go spec for spec and you will see you are wrong.
-8
I bought a Mac Mini. I feel empowered now.
3
Your computer will last longer than any PC of that same spec no matter what you do with it. Just sayin. (Its the UNIX base that makes it not so much a piece of shit)
-3
It overheats constantly, the microphone jack has a short in it, and the spinning color wheel of death takes over my computer every two days. :(
6
[deleted]
1
Um, isn't "fuck you apple" a little strong for the content of that article? I was expecting Apple to have carpet bombed Linux Land or something.
39
No kidding. I don't get how "fuck you" has become so popular on reddit. It's just lazy.
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So. Fuck you.
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I was going to leave some snark that had "fuck you" in it. But I didn't. But by telling you I didn't, I did. Fucked up no?
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It's also popular in real life...ya fucker.
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You know you are doing something right when someone threatens legal action because of it.
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I just raped your entire immediate family, including pets.
Am I doing it right?
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No, you aren't. You may have done my whole family, but you didn't do your homework!!
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*carried away in handcuffs*
BLAAAST YOU REDDIT!
*karmanaut freeze-framed laughing heartily, roll credits*
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You would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling kids!
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I feel like I'm late to the party. What's with all the comments telling you to do your homework these days?
edit: nevermind; found the context. Hahaha!
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I don't know about doing right but are you doing homework?
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No. To do it right, you must finish by saying "The Aristocrats!"
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Praise for legal action from a future lawyer seems a bit biased. I like the cut of your jib.
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Just looking out for my potential clients.
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I see how this sounds terribly controversial and exciting and even incensing to PC fanboys. However, I work in an advertising agency. These type of calls are pretty common, even though they sound whiny and generally pathetic. Cease and Desist orders and legal prosecution- or more accurately, attempts to cease and desist- are ridiculously commonplace.
Cease and Desist orders go back and forth constantly between large companies (for instance, Comcast and Qwest will legally try to choke each other all the time regarding price points and language about bundling, or saying whether DSL is faster/not faster, etc.)
Sure, this is terribly exciting to read... and to imagine execs frothing at the mouth over each others' ads. However, this shit goes down all the time and it's par for the course. Sorry if I'm harshing on your vibes :) Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Let the battle continue to ensue.
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You posted this 7 hours ago, with no reply yet. It's because you're absolutely right and no one can argue that. When you step back, that's all this is. Thanks for staying grounded
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Here's my main point on mac. Mac has marketed itself as the indy alternative to a PC; and indy, alternative, artsy, musical, political, people have flocked to Macs to avoid the mainstream "Big Business" Microsoft corporation. However, there's a very simple point I always like to make:
If you want to run Windows, what machine can you run it (legally) on? Well, any machine (personal computer) you want; even a Mac. Any hardware manufacturer can make a machine to be compatible with Windows OS.
What maching can you run Mac OS on? Only a Mac. Period end of story.
Mac is by far more greedy with their products than Microsoft. They practice less compatibility, and are far more corporate and capitalistic than Microsoft. They are not the indy alternative, they are a less successful yet more aggressive model.
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What maching can you run Mac OS on? Only a Mac. Period end of story.
But, to Apple's chagrin:
Installing Mac OS on a PC is a lot easier than you'd think, and since PC parts are generally much cheaper than Macs, you can do it cheaply and get a more powerful computer to boot.
http://lifehacker.com/software/hack-attack/build-a-hackintosh-mac-for-under-800-321913.php
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fail at reading comprehension
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If you want to run Windows, what machine can you run it (legally) on? Well, any machine (personal computer) you want; even a Mac. Any hardware manufacturer can make a machine to be compatible with Windows OS.
I believe he was only referring to things in a legal or contract sense, as he specifies above.
If he was saying what I think you are arguing against, his argument would essentially be this : "Windows can run on any hardware that's built to run windows". Which would be retarded.
Is there something about Mac OS TOS that requires it be run on Mac hardware?
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I don't have an "argument."
I am citing examples of Mac OS running on PC hardware, because it is tangentially relevant to the above comment.
That's it.
I think I'm getting downvoted because people think I'm trying to be some kind of a smug asshole, which I'm not.
There is indeed something about Mac OS fine print that says it must be installed on apple-branded hardware. Some Hackintosh enthusiasts have taken this literally to mean, "if I slap an Apple sticker on my PC box, then it's Apple-branded and therefore legal to install Mac OS."
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Ehh.. I think you should be upvoted for giving relevant information. But I think its because you came across as
"WRONG ASSHOLE, I CAN INSTALL MAC OS ON WHATEVER I WANT"
Remember you're sitting in a room full of a bunch of fanboys, pc and mac alike. Nothing said here will be taken as a neutral comment
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Indeed, I don't like being limited in my choice of hardware either... however:
- Windows really, really sucks balls, so it's tough to care about what hardware I can run it on.
- Apple is a hardware company, so I'm not sure comparing the two companies on this issue is really relevant.
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No one should be that excited about blu-ray.
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No one should be that excited about blu-ray on a lap top.
FTFY
Being that excited for blu-ray on a large HD television set is another matter though.
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or not. bluray as a format is not appealing to me at all. i have a huge tv, but i still cant get a portable bluray player, i cant pop it in the car during a roadtrip, and there are very few people i can lend a bluray to. ill stick to dvd until the brain implants or VR glasses arrive.
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"BLU-RAY!!!!!"
So realistic and believable...
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I get that excited about HD-DVDs when I find them for $5 or less.
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Am I the only one that thinks these commercials suck? And this has nothing to do with windows vs mac, I just think they are shitty chaotic commercials, and they are just annoying to watch.
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Wow, remind me to bash apple in the title when I decide to turn karma whore. They're just fucking computers people. Use what works for you.
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I wish more people were angered by Apple's handling of the Palm Pre and iTunes. Apple actually went out of their way to rewrite iTunes to keep out a secondary device for no reason other than to be elitist assholes.
The Pre is not a competitor to the iPod and not even really to the iPhone. If they are so secure in their superiority why keep the little guys from using your ubiquitous free software which has the potential to generate cashflow? If MS did this Apple would rail against it in an ad.
Apple is far too restrictive and elite for me. I like some of their products but not enough to just give in and give up any sense of ownership and individuality. So, for my own reasons, Fuck you Apple.
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Right, imagine if M$ had prohibited iTunes from working on Windows.
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I hate pretty much everything about iTunes except the iTunes catalog. The UI is horrible, it pops up in front of other applications constantly, and bitches about being updated nearly every time I launch it. I hate the shady crap Apple pulls in order to prevent hardware and software from interfacing with iTunes. It's all shit. Of all the software that's supposedly part of iLife, iTunes is the one application that really needs a ground-up rewrite similar to iMove.
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That analogy makes no sense.
That would only make sense if Apple were blocking the Palm software from running on OS X. They aren't doing that. They are simply not allowing Palm to use their proprietary software, which is well within their right.
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It makes complete sense. Windows and iTunes are both platforms, business and technical, Windows has a stake in the media market and could have easily made things difficult to gain traction by blocking Apple from their using their product (Windows) as a platform for their media delivery and management system. Now iTunes, like Windows, has become the dominant platform for media management and by expressly blocking Palm from accessing that platform they are giving one of their other products a distinct advantage.
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No, it doesn't. For that analogy to make sense, Microsoft would have to prohibit any other media software from running on Windows. That's not what's happening here. iTunes is simply software. You can buy stuff from the iTunes store and it could be used on a Pre if they chose to license FairPlay. They chose not to and decided to work around that. It was shady. They knew in advance what was going to happen.
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You have to admit that the way Palm went about getting the Pre to talk to iTunes was pretty shady. They're lucky it didn't end up in legal action.
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Pretty lame for Apple to push an update just to block the pre(if that's all the update addresses) but honestly iTunes is meant for Apple products why would a Pre user complain? that's just stupid. Edit: Or in reddit speak... Fuck! my local coca cola sponsored team don't sell pepsi at the game anymore!
Edit2: I've posted this in another relevant thread.
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How about the ipod update that prevented ipods from being used on an Xbox 360?
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"Apple actually went out of their way to rewrite iTunes to keep out a secondary device for no reason other than to be elitist assholes."
Yes, they MUST have done this out of elitism, not to try to protect their business model. Clearly they believe Palm Pre owners are not talented or wealthy enough to deserve access to iTunes.
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I love how people like you so staunchly defend companies like Apple. You aren't on their payroll, you get no discount, you may be a satisfied customer but you are nothing to a company like Apple except a little more income.
Protect their business model?? Seriously? By limiting people's interaction with a free app that solely relies on the user buying music from an online store they are protecting their business model here? Really?
The lock-in of iTunes is extremely restrictive for the user as-is and yes, I find the design of it to be quite elitest. Only iDevices, only MP3 or their codec, only their one single video codec, 5 "authorized" computers, and a proprietary library format that does nothing but complicate use are just the tip of the iceberg.
The fact that a Pre owner was or is using iTunes most likely means they already own an Apple device or have purchased something from iTunes at some point. I hope moves like this keep more people away over time and it bites them in the ass. We shall see.
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How in the hell did you interpret this as me defending Apple? I was just pointing out that Apple's motivation in this case was the almighty dollar, which is arguably more selfish, rather than some sort of elitism (look it up, elitism != vendor lock-in)
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One of the selling points of the iPhone is the seamless sync with iTunes. They are (for now) in the hardware business. iTunes just complements it.
As such, with the Pre trying to have this same experience, they were in fact trying to compete with Apple.
I also don't understand why people are talking about "if Microsoft did this...." Microsoft does do this. Try syncing an iWhatever with the Zune software. You'll quickly realize it doesn't work.
-1
Don't have an ipod on me, but Windows Media player is awesome in being able to sync with a vast variety of devices, including my Nokia mobile, as it happens.
1
I'm no fan of Microsoft. But I'm also no fan of Apple. After selling a $1100 laptop PC with WindowsXP and buying a $2500 MacBook Pro, the Macbook Pro is in the shop getting it's mobo replaced. The list of problems I've had with that laptop includes: A SuperDrive that won't burn or read DVDs anymore, a battery that lasted 113 cycles, coming out of sleep at random, and finally the video died (the reason its in the shop). And that $1100 PC? It's still working for the guy I sold it to. My Apple experience has been nothing but a headache.
When I wanted to complain about problems I had had with getting replacement earphones for my iPod Touch I couldn't find anywhere on their site to lodge a complaint. Finally they did send a survey.
When I called Apple about my MacBook Pro the support girl seemed disinterested in helping me once she determined my Macbook Pro was out of warranty (I've had it for two years; the warranty lasts 1 year w/o AppleCare). I asked her about the extended warranty on the laptop because of the Nvidia chip defects (as described in one of their KB articles). She basically said "take it to a local shop. Apple may reimburse you if you qualify." Apple would not take my laptop because I was in Canada. I had to ask her to look up a shop I could take it to. We didn't even do any basic troubleshooting. The impression I got from Apple was "Busted laptop? huff Take it to a local shop and maybe we'll do something for you then. At this point we won't even trouble ourselves with basic troubleshooting. You only spent about $4 grand in the last two years on Apple products. Fuck off". If I hadn't asked any questions the conversation might have lasted 30 seconds and I'd have a dead laptop sitting on my desk still.
I hope Microsoft's advertising campaign humbles them.
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This was exactly my experience ten years ago, when they had OS 7 and 8. Apple is a special company for special people and if their stuff breaks down after three years of operation, you must be one of those proles who doesn't buy a new computer every three years therefore they don't want to talk to you.
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Exactly my experience. When my 40gb ipod's hard drive died and I took it in to the 'genius bar' the other customers made fun of it and called it a dinosaur, and the employees even remarked about how told it was.
They're basically designed to break down after 2-3 years so you have to buy a new one.
The guy told me that 'since its so old' it would cost an astronomical amount to repair, so I basically should just buy a new one.
Why the hell would I shell out for a huge 40gb model with the intent to trade it in in 2 years? All I need it to do is play mp3s.
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Meh. I have a first gen ipod video that's still working fine. I doubt that they are designed to break, although I would not be surprised if Apple does not go extra expense to ensure their durability beyond the date they think most people will have upgraded (which would make the initial outlay more expensive and drive down uptake).
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I have had the opposite experience of Apple - all three times I have needed to call them about hardware issues they have completely replaced free of charge the hardware - in two of those three cases the hardware was out of warranty and I didn't buy an extended warranty.
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I own like 16 dell products, and roughly 9 Apple products, from iPods to computers to laptops to macbooks to minis - I even own the Dell DJ (lol).
I've had a problem with a dell product exactly once. I've never had an Apple product that hasn't failed in some capacity, whether it is the hard drive failing, or logic boards, or screen cracks, and laptop hinge cracking.
Honestly, Apple's overall hardware quality is obnoxiously awful. I really think they are designed to fail after 2 years. My Dell products? I wind up giving them away due to age, and they go on to serve faithfully until they literally gasp their last breath 10 years later. Oh yeah, my Dell DJ still works - though I don't really use it ;P
Maybe i'm just lucky. Maybe I'm part of that magical .1%. But this is my experience, and I buy a SHITLOAD of products from both companies.
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Apple's CS is usually pretty good, but yea there are some... bad apples. The solution is usually to call back in and get someone different.
Some reps don't know anything, others will be very nice and do whatever they can to help you out. I had one rep send me a replacement battery for $0.01 on a MacBook that was 1 year out of warranty.
It's all about attitude IMO.
For more complex issues Apple's CS can be a lot better at the Apple store... usually if there's an issue with a particular product, they will fix/replace that part/item... even out of warranty. It helps to be able to show someone what's going wrong.
Oh and a tip on laptops... always buy the manufacturers extended warranty. Laptops take so much abuse... the $200 or $300 you spend on the warranty will pay off.
Sucks you had a bad experience dude, mine has been pretty much the opposite. In fact I compare most other companies to Apples Customer Support, and pretty much everyone falls short. (Like Logitech. Who took 4 weeks to finally process the RMA for my G5 laser mouse and then sent it to me with the slowest/cheapest shipping possible. Apple on the other hand, has always shipped me replacement parts on the day of the compliant and with overnight shipping no less.)
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That sucks, but that's a very rare occurrence.
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How dare you. Next you'll say that anecdotes of hard drive failures shouldn't decide our purchases of those components.
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"Apple provides top-notch reliability and support. Its computers are currently less vulnerable to viruses and spyware than Windows-based models." -- consumer reports
"The data in this year's survey reconfirms observations from last year's results, namely that Apple and Lenovo's products and service continue to set the pace in the industry" - David A. Milman, founder and CEO of Rescuecom.
And that's just a few. Just do some simple googling. Mac rates consistently at the top (or near the top) for computer reliability. That's not to say they never have a problem, but they at least as well (and often better) than any othe computer company.
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From reading about the situation, it seems apple wanted the ads stopped because in the commercial, they quote a price on a Mac. Apple has since lowered the price. Therefore Microsoft is falsely advertising an inflated price of their competitors. The Apple ads bash MS pretty hard, but they don't falsely advertise the prices of any of their computers.
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i dont believe anyone is required to pull an already running ad because someone changed the details. the video was not doctored when it was recorded to inflate the price. that was the price at the time of filming.
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cool, now a $1,500 overpriced piece of shit is only $1,400. good news.
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what do you expect for $500? fact of the matter is, for $1,500 i can build you a pc that will have triple the specs of whatever mac that costs the same. their lowest priced one, right? such a joke
edit: i'll also enjoy owning it more than 3 years due to a thing called upgrading, that seems to be alien to apple. letting consumers buy their own hardware?! pshaw!
2
They are all built out of the same hardware from China. I highly doubt a MacBook will last longer than a Dell. If you actually care for your hardware it will last a long time. I still have a couple of C64s, a HP briefcase computer, a Sony Vaio from 1996, and they all work perfectly fine.
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i dont believe anyone is required to pull an already running ad because someone changed the details. the video was not doctored when it was recorded to inflate the price. that was the price at the time of filming.
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even if the price they quoted was off by a few dollars, their point still stands: crapple's computers are way overpriced.
3
can you link to any of these ads - we've never seen them over here...
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Are you a mac supporter? It seems to me you are, and I'm not saying this in an accusatory manner. I say that because I view the effectiveness of the ads differently than you do. I thought the "I'm a PC" ad to drive a very strong point and that TBWA's response to be shoddy and hypocritical.
Also, in regards to your budget conscious student, she said before hand she'd be looking to spend 1000$. Thats her budget. She listed a few qualities she'd like and found them all. Thats being budget conscious and shopping smart.
Edit: yeah, jerry seinfeld ad was shitty.
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I find the biggest irony of the Ridley Scott 1984 Mac ad to be that nowadays that's Steve Jobs on the screen and those are Mac Owners in the stands.
Simpsons redid it best.
Simpsons Mapple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGIn9bpALo
Ridley Scott 1984 Mac Ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8
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"Although to be honest, the 17-inch screen requirement mentioned in the ad seems odd for a budget-conscious college student just writing term papers and playing on Facebook. But hey, all's fair in advertising."
They claim its unscripted, reality-tv style filming. Its not usually something you lie about when you are a huge company paying another big advertising agency.
1
after reading the headline, i thought they were dissing linux or something. if that happens, it might set the record for comments in a reddit post.
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I hope this submission gets enough upvotes so that it will attract enough redditors and spur another epic Apples Vs Microsoft Internet battle.
fingers crossed
We can hold one here! I'll start.
Sure, Apple has a higher price, but you're also getting the best operating system in the world.
Don't be ridiculous. The prices on most of those computers in the store include the cost of Windows. And it's hardly the Best Operating System in the World. It's just adequate and trendy and has five times the reputation it deserves. XP is a great OS (and Vista isn't as bad as they say).
How long is it taking you to click through all the "yes, I want to connect to the internet" dialogs to reply to me? Let me know when your OS is as stable and secure as mine.
Oh, come on. If you run updates, use Firefox, and don't download random EXEs, you really don't need to get viruses on Windows. If a new Windows edition failed to support HALF the things OS X fails to support, it'd be laughed out of the market.
Millions of endlessly spinning Safari beachballs beg to differ.
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i'm a PC user (at home... i use both at work and would have a Mac at home if it didn't cost as much as a crippling coke-habit), but this still made me laugh out loud. Vista blows!
At first, I was like, "Nice troll." And then I noticed you trolled yourself. And then I noticed your alias. But when does the bearded, Birkenstock-wearing POSIX guy get into the debate?
Edit: DRTFA. It has a happy ending.
"'Photo' would like to use your Location [Allow] [Don't Allow]"
Zero, because there are no dialogs, and most of us who have legal copies of Windows Vista and now 7 haven't had any problems with viruses. I haven't had one since windows 98.
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That's probably because he's talking to himself.
Vista is terrible if you have to install it in a lab. SP2 fixed a lot of problems but I still prefer XP. We'll see how Windows 7 holds up.
You are getting BSD, which you can actually get for free.
XP is dead, though.
Randall Munroe has gone completely insane.
He also scored a couple thousand comment Karma
Couple thousand?
It appears he gained something like 15k in one string of posts.
He basically annihilated the record for most karma developed in the shortest period of time. Previously held by karmanaut, I believe.
Update: he's almost to 30,000 comment karma.
In one day.
I'm a little pissed.
We all knew he is a karma whore.
Holy shit, that is the single greatest cKarma grab I have ever seen. Well done.
it's a classic case of a Fight Club syndromes!
I know this because the woz knows this.
Fight Club with a Geek's touch. "Fanboy Club." The twist at the end is the Windows and Apple fanboy is the same person... Dun Dun DUn!
You can argue he wasn't a model of pure logic and sanity before the thread began, but yeah, we totally pushed him over the edge...
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Uhh, OSX is a BSD rip. Its not bad, it probably has the best GUI, but its definitely not the best operating system in the world overall by far.
It is outgunned technically by Solaris, security by OpenBSD, flexibility by Linux, and (I know this will be hard to swallow) an overall consumer package by Windows.
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Sorry to burst your righteous bubble, but its time to prove you wrong.
It has a lot more to do with BSD than you give it credit for. First take a look at Mach, and realize that it "was developed as a replacement for the kernel in the BSD version of UNIX". You calling this little to do with the BSD is simply dishonest.
Next, take a look at XNU. "The result is a combination of Mach and a classical BSD kernel, with some advantages and disadvantages of both."
Except that Cygwin/Windows can't emulate a true POSIX layer and functions like fork are not available. I think its safe to say that OSX is fundamentally based on BSD.
The TCP/IP stack used to be based on BSD. This is not the case anymore. What still uses BSD are a handful of network utilities. This is a far cry from saying that anything inside the kernel is BSD unlike OS X.
You mean Apple just ripped out the userland stuff to put in their own junk, and compiled everything with their own C++ like language? Its still a BSD-like OS in my books.
You might also like this link:
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/21/1030223
Oh my, OS X can't even run without the BSD layer? Does this sound like something not based on BSD to the core to you?
Sorry, but I don't think you really know the hell you are talking about.
I was a NeXTStep developer. Know what the initials 'NS' for all the core objects in Cocoa stand for (NSObject, NSString, etc.)? That's right ... "NeXTStep" ...
You forgot BeOS! The fabled mystical OS that could run everything in awesome-mode without hiccuping! And the BeBox was a sweet looking machine.
And haiku error messages. Don't forget those!
Depending on your usage NetBSD (it installs on toasters after all ;-). If it's got a processor of any sort, odds are NetBSD will run on it.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that from several years ago. Its ridiculous.
i don't know why your being downvoted, your comments are as informed as many others.
It seems like the best way to get somebody more upvotes is to say, "I don't know why you're being downvoted".
Apple fanboys.
Its really weird though. It is always at 0 whenever I look at it. Right now its at +6/-6
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Because he's completely wrong?
maybe because OS X is not a BSD rip whatever that means? BSD layer maybe, but not a rip...
Apple ships Linux now?
They used to.
It took me 5 mins to realize you were having a convo with yourself. Well done sir.
Got me too, at first i thought reddit turned into a gentleman's club with people replying to others in an orderly fashion using proper sentence structure.
You really like your orange envelopes, eh?
No, maybe they're red. O SHI-
Did you get the memo? The real question is whether they're redorange or orangered.
Anyway, here. Have one.
Orangered. Question answered. Move along.
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I appreciate that by responding to yourself you literally doubled your existing comment karma. karmanaut would be jealous.
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Debatable, besides, that's a judgment call. There are things that OS:X does that completely sucks ass. The same can be said about every OS out there.
The best operating system in the world is free, man!
They are shipping Macs with Ubuntu now?
One time when i was high, i tried installing ubuntu on my mac. But i failed.
Here's the completely irrelevant interjection from a Linux user, "Oh, yeah? What about Linux? Linux is the best.""
I don't see what the big deal is. What I care about are what programs I can run on my OS. It's much easier to "find" programs for Windows. ;)
Mr. Munroe, you've always been my hero, but with this thread you've now officially won the internet.
Don't be ridiculous. They're not shipping Ubuntu on those Macs...
You just made me laugh at work. I'm sitting here holding it in and my face is red. (Not that Mac OS isn't good, it's just such a great troll). Honestly, it may have a leg up on XP, but I think 7 may have a leg up on OSX.
Fail android is the best operating system in the world try again!
I like how my OS X's mouse pointer goes invisible sometimes and I have to shake it around to find it again.. that and dozens of other oddities make me wonder about OS X's perfection.
THIS! I had to work on Macs for 6 months for a publication class. It was like a pattern recognition test whenever you left the monitor and came back and had to shake the mouse to find that elusive little bastard.
The best operating system in the world would be completely free software and not under the control of any company, let alone one as closed and proprietary as Apple, so no, OS X is not "the best operating system in the world".
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Oh good, you can show me the source code for Cocoa then can't you? The only open source bits are the kernel and the standard Unix commands, and frankly who cares about those?
Not true at all haha
Wait, are you serious?
Bahahaha.
gets popcorn
applies smug
I think you applied too much for this argument; I have authentic needs to stab you now.
applies kevlar body suit
Do your homework first,stab later.
Do you really have time to be stabbing people? Shouldn't you be doing your homework instead?
linux guy sits back to enjoy the show and keeps mouth shut
That's one thing I love to think about the Microsoft ads. They're not really selling Microsoft, they just selling not buying an expensive laptop... every laptop is compatible with Linux ;-P
Wait, did you install linux on a PC? APPLE HATES YOU TOO.
Silently noting OSX was derived from Linux.
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apply directly to forehead!
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jacks slowly
I was sooooo pissed. I bought new computer from Bestbuy and the godamn mouse only had one button! Then, I tried to install some software and absolutely nothing ran on it. The cool white color got me some hipster pussy though.
Next time, buy a windows laptop and use the money you saved to get a wolf shirt.
A+ comment would upvote again.
Next time, buy a windows laptop and use the money you saved to get a wolf shirt.
(You promised .. you better upvote me!)
it's only 7am, and we already have a comment of the day. Kudos.
If I don't spend all of the money, is it going to follow me around and stare at me playing Michael Jackson songs?
Heh, Apple are a great tech company though - developing LLVM and NeXTSTEP - It's more aimed at developers than hipsters now with the brilliant, streamlined development environment of Cocoa freely available, yet all the classic GNU utils are there too - it could be heaven.
the 10 year old one button argument! If you lift your finger off the left side of a mighty mouse and click, that registers as a right click. When you tap a macbook trackpad with two fingers instead of one that registers as a right click.
A steering wheel should not be square.
hey let's go ride bikes!
How do you double click?
you press it with the pointer finger twice the same way you would on any laptop. I think you misunderstood when I said press with two fingers. I meant pointer and middle finger at the same time. To scroll up and down drag those two fingers up and down (left to right works as well). These are called gestures and they absolutely rule. Some manufacturers later incorporated a "scroll area" of the touchpad but it's pretty poor in comparison.
The Mighty Mouse is a shitty mouse on many fronts but it's got plenty of buttons and has shipped standard on Macs for almost four years now.
Edit: Really? Voted down for this? What's false about it?
iHate the Mighty Mouse.
Really fucking immature fanboys spreading angst against an operating system don't like to realize the fact that Macs aren't as bad as they say they are...
Would you like a cookie?
WTF is up with all of the condescending crap towards Mac-users?
Seriously, grow the fuck up.
Not trying to start a war here, just saying that, as arguments go, the "only one button" argument is complete bullshit. You get a bigger button and you still have right click only a two finger tap or a ctr. button away.
So it's tailored to people who would otherwise need a special dialing wand?
And you have difficulties with the size of buttons on a PC?
On some yes. My dad's work laptop is a new HP and the buttons below the trackpad are miniscule.
Fuck Microsoft! They aren't even edible! What the fuck are they trying to market?! Apples taste so much better.
You ever tried to eat a Microsoft? Not very tasty....I found bugs in mine.
that's just added protein
Bear Grylls supports Microsoft!
You ever try eating a Microsoft on weed?
Yeah, but it was low-calorie being Micro, and Soft while still being subtly chewy. I enjoy my Microsoft Cookies.
Apple is like the Monsanto of the PC industry. They make things better (genetic modification) and they don't let you replicate their system on your own (zero seed-saving policy).
You ever tried eating Linux? Nobody does an OS better than the Linux kernel.
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Only a dirty mac user would want something like that!
NO, KARMANAUT! Don't tell us you're one of the enemy!
:-(
Yeah seriously. Who gives a shit about this any more? At this point, it's a personal choice. Some people like chocolate ice cream. Some like vanilla. You good spend eternity arguing which is better. People who waste time on arguing this shit needs to get laid.
NO. You are wrong. Do not deny overweight middle aged virgins the chance to win glory for their operating system on the Internet battlefileds.
Hey! I'll have you know I'm an overweight teenage virgin!
Hey! I'll have you know I'm an underweight 20-something who is applying for virgin status on account of not having had sex in like forever.
Amen Brother! I don't think reddit's business model could support a drop in screenshots to [pics] from people with a bitchin' mod of KDE on ubuntu that found a picture on the internet in their awesome browser.
Hey it was apple that started the ad war.
I like apple products but hate some of their advertising. I don't care for that smug little "I'm a mac" shithead.. they could do much better by showing off OS X's features directly the way they are showing off the iphone and apps.
They don't, because they are ashamed of the steaming piles of shit known as "Finder", "Spotlight", and their crappy "Dock".
Fuck you vanilla is better.
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Without this, what would we ever argue about???
Vanilla sucks loser.
I can't wait for Mark Shuttleworth to start sponsoring some ads, so we can get a three-way with Linux.
Darn, out of popcorn!
I HAVE SOME DIRTY BURRITOS IN MY TRUNK
That's what she said.
Ewwwwwww
3rd time I've ever seen this used correctly and humorously.
this is rarely funny anymore and oft overused. However, yours was perfect execution!
You know, I just took a quick peek at your comment history and I have to tell you... It can all be overlooked due to the absurdity of this non sequitur.
I like you.
I think I'd like to subscribe to your newletter. Please make sure you use spell check, though.
THANKS FOR THE LOVE AND SUPPORT. I HAVE FRIENDED YOU
I agree. AND, I'm sticking around for my first dirty burrito experience!
In IYELLALOT's world, Sanchez dirties you!
That's the funniest thing I've ever seen you write.
I am not sure what you just said, but I think you are awesome anyway!
I LOVE YOU TOO. THANK YOU FOR THE CONTINUING SUPPORT IN THESE TIMES. I HAVE ADDED YOU AS A FRIEND
kernel panic!
upvotes for xkcd's monologue through time
why is that image bigger than it needs to be? 954x617 with a lot of extra white space in the bottom/right
I fucking love reddit.
The biggest issue in this arguement for me is how PC = Windows in the commercials released by Apple.. I've had an in depth argument with a Mac user only to find out he was talking specifically about windows whereas I was talking about a computer with which I could do whatever the fuck I wanted with; including installing OSX. After I discovered this the guy decided to begin arguing how I'm incorrect on everything on the topic since society believes that anything called a PC will have windows on it. I hated the argument and left after that.
opens IE6 in Windows Me and writes
Get more hot nerdy chicks in MS Ads, please!!!
You made it through a sentence without IE 6 or Windows ME crashing?
It must have taken a few tries.
Here I will weed some out for you.
You have to have owned both Apple and Microsoft based computers to participate in this argument. Owning one and going on the rumors of the other disqualifies you.
Does having one of each at work, and a hackintosh(among other OSes) at home qualify me?
If you're skilled enough to get a hackintosh working I think it qualifies you for most things, including military advice and country-running.
Sweet, I will put all of that on my resume.
Hackintosh success is 98% hardware selection.
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Or learn about business reporting. AKA, the he-said she-said of upper management in rival companies!
Shit is going to get nasty when the *nix people join the conversation and it becomes a three way fanboy free for all.
If you can't stand the heat...
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I could care less about the never-ending battles between Windows and Mac users. My most recent PC was a VAIO laptop. To get a Mac with comparable specs you're looking at spending $1,000+ more than I did...and VAIO's aren't the cheapest machines to begin with.
Its the smugness of Apple fanboys that gets under my skin. I would say that half of the people I know who own a Mac don't do anything more with their machines than browse the web, goof off on Facebook and chat with friends who've moved around the country. Yet, they feel they're doing so in a superior fashion because they have an Apple on their laptop cover.
I have quite a bit of disdain for Microsoft, however, 'Bravo!' to them and their ad campaign. What a bunch of friggin' babies...