Source
r/Fitness•
shaksta4

How should I be training on a cut?

TL;DR At the bottom.

Hey guys,

To give some background, I've been on and off with the gym and working out in general. I work out hard for a few months and then get lazy and get fat for the next few months. For that reason, I'm not in shape and currently im more motivated than ever to keep working out. It's been roughly a month since I started and I've been really trying to do my research.

From what I understand, basically:

  1. More volume = more hypertrophy.

  2. Higher intensity = increases strength

But of course, its hard to achieve the same volume with higher intensity given a set amount of time, so when training for strength, hypertrophy gains are present but not optimal.

I'm currently trying to lose fat so i'm on a caloric deficit. Should I even be worrying about hypertrophy in my muscles or should I limit my rep ranges optimized for strength gains? The workout plan I'm following has me doing 10-12 reps per set. I was blindly just following it but after thinking about it, it should be very hard, or basically impossible to gain any substantial muscle on a deficit so maybe I should increase intensity and lower the rep ranges?

Thanks.

tl;dr should I be strength training or hypertrophy gaining when trying to lose fat.

Posted Dec 28, 2018, 12:32 PM UTC

829
chink135Bodybuilding•

If you're a beginner it is very much possible to gain muscle on a deficit. Train hard, eat enough protein, and sleep well

15
fizgigtiznalkie•

Volume can be reps AND time under tension, e.g. if you the weight you can do 10 quick bicep curls at and do a set vs. taking 10lbs off and do 1 second concentric on the way up and 3 seconds eccentric on the way down, check which one got your biceps more activated, what was actually harder, and which you had better form on. Upping the reps isn't always the way to go, slow it down for gains.

10
shaksta4OP•

Good point. But the reason I made this post is to figure out whether I should be training for hypertrophy on a deficit.

2
fizgigtiznalkie•

Right but that whole paragraph you talk about number of reps and decreasing them to up strength, it’s not just the count, do heavy explosive reps for strength and slow/more reps for size. The rest was pretty much covered by the time I read the comments so I was just trying to add to the conversation instead of repeating it.

1
shaksta4OP•

Righto, makes sense thanks!

1
scorpionMasterPowerlifting•

Doesn't matter. Pick a routine and do it.

3
METEOS_IS_BACK•

Found the powerlifter :)

4
hellectronic•

Lyle McDonald wrote about it https://bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

3
dmnaf•

I’m on a cut now and I’ve seen great results (minimal loss of muscle mass) just from lifting heavy (and therefore in smaller rep ranges like 3 to 5). Also I don’t do as many accessory exercises in the 15-20 rep range. Just lots of big heavy movements and an occasional accessory exercise for a better pump. Note that on a cut you’re very likely to go down in the weights. For example before my cut I was doing EZ bar curls at 40kg x 8 reps x 5 sets. Now I’m doing 35kg x 5 reps x 4 sets. That’s a clear drop in strength but don’t let this discourage you... my arms have never looked better with the overall drop in body fat that comes with the caloric deficit.

1
ptam•

The drop in strength probably isnt even permanent. Just suboptimal glycogen stores.

5
knowitall89•

Exactly. After a long cut (~8 months 40 pounds), I beat my previous PRs within about a month.

1
shaksta4OP•

I think i'm still having noob gains, because I've been on a deficit for the past 4 weeks and my working weight has steadily been going up.

1
FF_ChocoBoBodybuilding•

Read the wiki. Do any routine in there and you'll gain strength and size. Don't worry about 'optimal' yet.

1
colinaut•

If you are still in novice strength level — which it seems you are — then just stick to an easy to implement novice LP program like Phrak’s Greyskull LP. You’ll gain muscle and strength at the same time as long as you do the work and eat enough protein. Also as a novice who has enough body fat to burn you can make gains on a cut as long as you put in the work and eat enough protein.

Don’t worry about the difference between hypertrophy training vs strength training until you’re out of novice gains territory. Just work to get as strong as you can with linear progression. After you’ve maxed out your novice gains than you can switch to more of a bodybuilder program or a powerlifting program depending on your goals.

1
shaksta4OP•

I'm using lee labradas 12 week program. I'm quite comfortable with it and I've been seeing results so I'm planning on sticking with it mostly. I've just been wondering about fiddling with the rep ranges he's set out. Instead of working at 10-12 reps, I was thinking of upping the weight and dropping down to 6-8 reps.

1
colinaut•

Do what works for you, but from personal experience I found doing a 3x5 program more effective for my main lifts in my novice period. Admittedly my first several months was just fuckarounditis playing around with 3x8 and 5x5 so it may have been lack of any program. However, all I know is when I switched to doing a 3x5 program I made way faster strength gains with my main lifts. I still used higher rep range for accessory work but my focus was on the core lifts.

1
shaksta4OP•

That sounds like a good idea. I might try that out for a month or two and see how that feels.

1
_raaes_•

You will probably want to train for hypertrophy as that will burn a larger amount of calories. You could, hypothetically, train for strength as well assuming that you are actually overweight. Your body will need nowhere near the amount that your TDEE sites as your usage to bulk. Simply incorporate a high protein and high carb diet into the mix and you'll be just fine brotha man

1
inertia709•

Train for hypertrophy. You need to tell your body to not burn your muscle for fuel, and the best way to do this is to train like you would when building muscle.

0
colinaut•

Depends on how much muscle OP has. If they are in novice gains territory — which it sounds like they are — they’ll build muscle regardless. Hypertrophy training vs strength training really only becomes a thing when someone has pushed past novice strength levels.

3
shaksta4OP•

How can you tell you've pushed past novice strength levels?

1
Tombulgius_NYC•

People have all sorts of rules of thumb for this. "When you can no longer increase weights every session", or every week, are a couple. More broadly, "When you can no longer recover from a beginner program." Or when you begin repeatedly stalling on a beginner program. Or, 135lb OHP/225lb Bench/315lb Squat/405lb Deadlift, although that one's been long criticized for (1) being variable based on bodyweight and (2) maybe aiming too low. And obviously becomes less relevant if you don't or won't test 1RM's.

Being really aggressive about periodizing intensity/volume (especially with regard to training style differences during cutting or bulking) is something a novice can do, but only becomes really important once you've tripped one or more of the standards above. Or other standards that experts use which I'm ignorant of.

But the only surefire way is to have, for example, an experienced coach review your program adherence and diet, enough to say "you just aren't pushing yourself" versus "you're not a beginner & you need to periodize your training". It's gonna be very difficult to find the exact point.

2
shaksta4OP•

Hmm. Makes sense I guess. I'm still gaining strength with almost every gym session so i'll just stick with it. And I have been gaining noticeable size even on a deficit but it may just be muscles being more pumped up and full of water ever since I started drinking more and working out again.

2
colinaut•

You can use Symmetric Strength Strength Standards as a guide. It's not the end all be all as everyone is different. As the other commenter mentioned, when you keep stalling is a decent measure though stalling could also just be an issue of not eating enough or not putting the work in. There are ways to "run out" novice programs too to keep pushing Linear Progression till it's completely tapped out. Older lifters tend to do better shifting to an intermediate program earlier but again everyone is different.

You may also stall out at different rates for different lifts. For instance my bench and press stalled out long before my squat and deadlift. Running out a novice program may include shifting approaches for some lifts but not others.

1
shaksta4OP•

Oh cool as ! I can see i'm near or at the novice level for most of my lifts (8 rep max, haven't done any 1rm stuff).

1
CorneliusNepos•

Just train. Do whatever you normally do that works for you.

0
[deleted]•

Diet is 60% of this game, rest is 30%, and training 10%. No one wants to admit it, but the majority of this game is diet and sleep, so dial those in first before you worry about tinkering with your gym routine. As a fairly new lifter, you're going to see considerable gains in the strength and the weight loss departments regardless of programming. Remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

But for the aforementioned 10%, I like nSuns a lot. Various programs to choose from, all designed to be run on a deficit, and all with varying rep ranges and percentages of your 1RM. Lots of good apps for it too, so logging workouts and tracking your progress is super easy. r/nsuns is the dedicated sub, with suggestions for accessories and the like.

Anecdotal n=1, but I've been at it for about 15 months now and I'm down ~80lbs (5'5M 255 => 175 give or take because of Christmas leftovers). I couple this with IF - no food before 10am and no food after 7pm - and cardio after every workout (treadmill, elliptical, swimming, stationary bike, or a ruck march).

-3
dsjersey24•

Tf?

2
shaksta4OP•

Yeah I think I can manage diet. I've been pretty strict with myself over the christmas period and I figure if I can have good discipline now, then i'll be fine outside holiday period. I've been on a deficit and I'm definitely seeing a ton of changes. It's been 4 weeks and others have already started noticing changes - something I didn't expect for another few months.

I made this post mainly because I feel like I can increase strength much faster if I up the intensity. Like i'm using weight I can manage 10-12 reps with. But if I'm not going to see any real size gains on a caloric deficit, i'd rather use heavier weights and stick to 6-8 reps and focus on strength.

2