Source
r/starcraft•
Photoloss

Think you know better than Beastyqt? Prove him wrong!

Discussion

In a recent stream Beastyqt suggested a number of design-oriented changes to make the game more enjoyable. The Terran and Zerg sections are available as VODs, Protoss will likely follow suite in a few days.

But talk is cheap so I went and implemented his suggestions in an Extension Mod now available in both EU and US. Click Custom->Melee->Create with Mod and search for Balanceqt to try any regular map with 6-worker start, Irradiate-Hunter-Seekers, unkillable Ultralisks or max out on fully charged chadrays!

Please keep in mind this is not intended to be perfectly balanced numbers-wise although do feel free to highlight glaring issues not present in vanilla balance as well as bugs/glitches.

Edit: 12 worker start is back by default, you can lower it down via a new custom lobby option. This uses a dirty hack so don't be alarmed if you start with 12 workers and some of them suddenly vanish but please do report any issues where the actual worker count does not match the advertised value from the lobby.

Edit2: with the next update the mod will be renamed "Beastyqt's Balance Mod" at his request. I will leave the old name in the description hoping the search isn't complete trash but no guarantees.

Edit3: Mod updated and renamed to "Beastyqt's Balance Mod". The Beast has heard your pleas, and granted you Tech Reactors!

Posted Mar 8, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC · edited

10353
BeastyqtSC2iNcontroL•

I'd love to try these things out on my stream!

I don't think a 6 worker start along the changes I made is a good idea though. It's one or the other, not both at the same time :)

Thank you for implementing the changes!

63
PhotolossOP•

Hiya, glad to help and feel free to PM me here for adjustments.

I'd like to make the starting workers selectable, it'll be an ugly hack but I might be able to scale both worker count and town hall supply down from the default via a lobby option so you can change it every individual match. If nothing else leaving it at 6 workers for a day or two should prevent people from going in with optimised cheese builds :P

11
IMSupervisorTerran•

It makes it very hard to know what kind of a difference the free orbital and changed mules make though.

0
arakashZerg•

Hey, Just wanted to say that I really like your idea of more drastic changes, but I'd really miss some changes that expand the design space. All of your changes are still well in the "well-defined" possibilities.

I give some examples what I mean with expanding the design (with random units to make it more easily understandable)

  • Investors now have to eat creep to regenerate Energy.
  • Instead of nydus worms, Zerg can deploy a nydus bridge which can span over dead space or also as a artificial evelation ( to up from one ground level to the next).
  • Marauder shells now can push back instead of slow.
  • Archons emit a very small burning aoe around their model.
  • All high Templar have access to the same energy pool. ( Which increases with every ht).
  • High ground advantage

Hopefully my point is sort of coming across. ☺️ Thanks again for all of your videos.

P.S.: I'm actually really scared that what I'm writing is coming off as a sort of attack/insult, since English is not my first language.

2†
LagmawnsteriNcontroL•

This sounds like the type of ideas that players would hate, but which would refreshen the game. These more crazy design change ideas is what has kept dota going. Taking the risk to expand the design space is something few game devs are willing to make though.

5
BeastyqtSC2iNcontroL•

Hey, I have 3 "ways" that I had in mind that could change up StarCraft 2. First is the "brawl" challenges that would take units in and out of the game, which is the least probable one. Second one is the balance and design suggestions from the videos I made about that, things I would change. Third one is reducing the amount of workers to 6/7/8/9 to slow down the game.

I personally would love changing units completely/their abilities like you suggested, but realistically it most likely won't happen. Option two and three are more likely imo.

1
DuodenoLugubre•

Uh, I don't think high Templars need a buff

1
HKAzxcTerran•

marauder knockback is an interesting idea lol, dab on the charglots

-1
Kaiel1412•

in the next vod, how about immortals could shoot up like what you did to swarm hosts having 2 modes.

2
Trolerkules•

Hahahahahahahahaha

3
Kaiel1412•

imagine them shooting up and deal bonus to armored units, but they have to derp around like dragoons

1
suriel-Ence•

if they have a 50% chance to hit .. ok?

0
PhotolossOP•

Should they knock the target half a screen backwards and damage all enemy air they collide with, or stack up all surrounding air units then deal splash damage to them?

2
Kaiel1412•

nah just like regular dragoons.

1
beansalad_is_nice•

What do you think about changing the starting workers?
Not necessarily to six (maybe 9 or 10 idk)

0
tzaddiq•

I love this "talk is cheap so I'm gonna step up and do it" attitude! Way to go.

13
beefalomon•

A fusion core 200/200 upgrade that turns all add-ons into Tech Reactors is a great idea!

10
BumblebeepotatoTerran•

Or to build one it costs 100/100 or 75/75 and requires a fusion core

1
sayd11oo•

This is very cool!

But did he actually say that we should have 6-worker start??

6
PhotolossOP•

He keeps advocating for it every now and then, that stream he was slightly ambiguous within the 6-9 range but I haven't found a satisfactory way of adding a custom lobby option (the standard catalogue stuff doesn't work for this particular parameter).

3†
Harokku•

I'll be testing this. after watching his videos I got really hyped up about a lot of the changes, especially the swarm host one as a zerg players who loves player harrass/siege styles.

6
PhotolossOP•

Harassment might be a fair bit weaker, these locusts are more intended as an expendable buffer or initiator units. Both versions deal half the dps of vanilla and the flying ones attack in melee range which actually makes them quite derpy if the opponent stops mineral walking in time. However the grounded ones outrange hellbats and archons by a fair margin and they last a lot longer now so running away until they time out is less effective.

0
Reallynotarobot123•

Only listened to the zerg part, and the SH changes are basically remoivng it from the game, the flying locusts are garbage, because slow and melee (and do shit damage), thats a no-no combo, it wont kill anything, think about zealots/lings, they're fast as fuck, hellbats are usually not a harassing unit, when theyre it's with medivacs, and the ground locusts, simply get blown the fuck up because for some reason they're light so they can also get fucked by hellbats or hellions, and dont have enough dps to kill anything, they'd be trivial to deal with, it's like the unit was designed to be useless.

Would be amusing to see zergs try to deal with turtle Terran, with these changes, some turrets and mass tank/thor is probably unbreakable, I'm sure it will lead to some EXCITING gameplay.

-1 Queen range is basically the only thing I agree with.

5
PhotolossOP•

If I understood Beasty's idea correctly the flying locusts are mainly intended to jump over anti-ground siege lines (especially divebombing tanks so they kill each other), catch out and trap smaller enemy squads via their mobility and do some harassment on the side "when you have nothing better to do". The ground locusts can serve as a temporary backline for ling/roach attacks or run in first for "free" damage if the opponent doesn't have splash units out yet. Also they force out said splash units which you can use to your advantage. Personally I think especially the flying ones might need a health increase (too much generic +dmg vs Armored going around), maybe in the form of a hive-tier upgrade. Move speed might need to be increased too, the current vanilla ones are basically tuned around "if they reach you you are already dead".

Against turtle terran you should now be able to land blinding clouds on thors without taking return fire, protect squishies from tank/mine splash with qtShroud and yoink liberators a little more safely. Also ultralisks sound insanely tanky on paper now, they take 14 tank shots to kill while a CC(/PF RIP) takes 18.

1†
Harokku•

I think what you could do to help melee locust is boosting their air speed, ground speed, and especially dive range a bit to not be rendered useless by just running workers away. And maybe giving them an a slight impact damage (like 4-6 damage). For the speed, I think something like matching worker movement would be enough. I agree with health boost too. I think the role of these locust was to be used as harrass or a buffer to engage into turtled/sieged armies. I think those changes could help them a bit, but ofc we would need poeple to test them, readjust, test, repeat.

1
Reallynotarobot123•

Blinding cloud and abduct wont work vs a Terran who knows whats he's doing, just couple lines of turrets/thors is pretty much rip that, specially with these new ravens, blinding cloud run in and get obliterated is probably going to be the best choice. If you want to delete swarmhosts from the game, and severely nerf vipers, you might wanna do something relevant to broodlords.

Honestly I'm glad Blizzard is the one balancing the game, also the FREE OC, is utterly ridiculous, that's like making queens free, it's fucking absurd, and Terran doesnt need early/midgame buffs, the turret change and medivac and raven change seem fine to me, but also nerfing VIPERS and SWARMHOSTS will basically break the game for anyone but maybe the top5 Zerg in the world.

0†
Pelin0reZerg•

2 larvaes for stacking injects make sense to me too. and i'm curious about the anti-aoe shroud too.

1
SinisterslothZerg•

lol as someone with shit mechanics I was soooo happy when they added larva stacking. Back in WoL i would watch my replays and just cry.

3
SettlTeam Liquid•

I also think max hatchery larva 15 is a great change.

0
MelinaZzZzTerran•

The changes seems fresh and will kinda make people go back and check the game once again, and maybe keep playing more. i always wonder why sc2 was kinda abandoned in terms of balance changes, and more drastic changes that could kinda change the gameplay a bit. Themed seasons would be great for the game, any game must be kept fresh, sc2 maps cant do it, since all are kinda the same nowdays, im 100% for gameplay changes that will affect the whole game.

ps: tested the terran - looks very refreshing and cool , beasty is right - we have more options and more viable builds.

6
RyomaSJibenGProtoss•

Can somebody list down all of Beasty's changes like the patch notes blizzard release? maybe in a google doc or something

5
PhotolossOP•

The mod lists all changes in the patch notes, I just scribbled stuff down from the twitch VOD.

2
brutusterr-Anus•

Some of these changes are pretty extreme (for terran at least). I'd just suggest giving terran more passive vision (maybe gives a non damaging mines to the reaper to give them value past the 3 min mark ?) by tweaking sensor towers and adding the tech-reactor upgrade

4
PhotolossOP•

No need for tech reactors currently, you just research the upgrade and that fully replaces the tech lab requirement. I was hesitant to add tech reactors because handling existing add-ons could get messy, do they all just transform for free? Can tech reactors research upgrades? As a slight bonus my current solution also works if you have no add-on at all, but that could be adjusted if it's too strong so a reactor or a tech lab is needed.

Regarding vision you now save 150 minerals on the orbital which could be 3 extra marines at key paths or one scouting rax for early highground shenanigans. I myself am not too keen on vision wards because we already see what zerg does with those. One neat feature which exists in co-op is "snapshot" radar vision where you can see the outlines of the units (i.e. identify enemy composition, no more Ultra surprises!) but not target them with weapons or abilities so tanks don't get free reign. Might be too strong though, or too obscure and clunky as a paid sensor tower upgrade (also laggy as all hell in team games I presume, needing to render 4+ armies at all times even when they aren't fighting).

4†
RexoraptorTeam Liquid•

tbh, 6 workers doesnt sound interesting (to me). i dont think id want to go below 10.

​

could still be fun, who knows.

Wait, can we get more guardian like brood lords? x)

4
ThismyredditnameProtoss•

WOL and HOTS had 6 workers, I think I enjoyed it a bit more. Scouting seemed more important and you had a bit more time to adapt to what you scouted. The games were definitely slower and from an audience perspective, having 3 minutes with nothing happening at start of each map kind of sucks.

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-2
Tomthehammer•

I believe it jumped straight from 6 to 12

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
SinisterslothZerg•

I think he had some neat ideas but I really don't like the idea of slow ultras. I still feel like ultras viability in broodwar was due to their insane speed, and their lack of viability in SC2 has always been due to how slow they are. If you have a large melee unit that is a priority target, it doesn't matter what else about it you buff—all too often it will just die before it can deal any damage because it fails to close with the enemy. I would go the other direction—nerf hitpoints and/or damage, buff move speed.

Also the mule OC change feels a bit radical. Maybe a subtler change would be to allow SCV production while OC is going up? Or let it spawn with more energy so you can at least recoup the lost mining time faster? ... Also I would really like to hear from someone at Blizz about why depots take longer. is it supposed to balance supply calldown or something? doesnt' seem fair since supply calldowns are stealing mules from you.

2
rowrinTerran•

I'm kinda against giving terran zero supply static defense. It just makes turtle mech more cancer, and IMO the biggest issue is that side/multi prong attacks are completely shut down by static defense as it is. Low-tier recall, shield batteries and cannons are overlapping tools for defense and frankly overkill for the purpose. Then zero supply spines/spores are a no-risk solution for zerg who often have a mineral bank and the excess economy to spam them. Given that zerg is already the most mobile race in the game, and even their "static" defense can move, this too is overkill.

I'd like to see shield battery removed and replaced with the ability for pylons to morph into shield batteries. They maintain their pylon power field, but it's radius is equivalent to the % energy remaining.

Then just treat spines and spores like every other siege unit in the game and make them cost supply. I mean, having a dozen or so spines/spores out on the map costing supply late game is one way to reduce zerg's late game composition without fudging a bunch of numbers elsewhere, and has little impact on the early game when there are only 2-3.

2
SKIKSTerran•

Normally I'm not big on Beastyqt's commentary, but many of his Terran changes are ideas that I could at least get behind some variant of. I may check them out a bit.

1†
Protton6•

That sounds awesome!

1
Kaiel1412•

All that's missing here is for a helion speed upgrade

1
Got22Be•

guys we have to realise blizzard will change nothing sadly …. not even a community update at this point

1
PhotolossOP•

As long as they don't shut down the servers without enabling 3rd party stand-ins you are free to play this mod. Get some casters involved during the off-season and you might even be able to have a crowdfunded tournament as we have for 2v2s and Scion Custom Races (not sure whether Starbow and Heptacraft are still going)

2
Got22Be•

dude i love this changes and i wish blizzard take the ideas but i think we have to be real here and thats makes me sad

1
moisolel•

The best way to push this is to open it in the arcade to play so it gets popular

1
13thTime•

In another vid Beasty talks about each race having a big heroic unit
Theres been some balance talk for a while now, dont remember the vid.
But in essence it was...

The Terran Odin from the wings of liberty trailer. (Blasting nukes and stuff)
Mothership (Vortex and Timestop)
& Zerg leviathan

1
PhotolossOP•

Two issues with those: first of all a vocal portion of players believe "hero units" and "super units" have no place in the design of competitive starcraft. I am not one of them as long as it's limited to "1 at a time" and "slightly stronger than a BC" but speed-nukes, trailer black hole and the different variations of zerg drop pods we've seen are a fair bit above that. Basically, like the current Mothership, the people genuinely wanting such units would be disappointed by their final power level.

Secondly since the game is not designed around them like WC3 or WH40K: DoWII were having only one or two such "super units" per race can lead to a stale lategame centering around whatever strategies synergise the most with said super units. We already saw this with the Archon Toilet, granted winfestor+gglord was stupidly OP but it also saw plenty of more general use especially in team games. Maybe Beasty and a select few other players with substantial experience with all three races at the pro level could work together and design units which remain versatile with only 1-3 attacks and 2-4 abilities but I have zero confidence in my own ability to do so. Heck Beasty still is quite biased in favour of terran/against zerg depending on context.

3
DB605•

I have a lot of ideas for fixing Zerg but a lot of them are too late in the game for changes like that. For things that can be legitimately done in a single balance patch I think his ideas for Zerg make sense. A lot of sense.

However, I don't like the idea of giving Protoss back the mothership core. That unit was awful.

I like the idea of making charge gated instead of removing the damage completely.

I actually like most his changes for Terran to though I legitimately think the Liberator needs to be removed or reinvented.

0