en.wikipedia.orgPosted May 29, 2011, 6:46 AM UTC
Even more disturbing:
Bernadotte was assassinated on Friday 17 September 1948 by members of the Jewish nationalist Zionist group Lehi (commonly known as the Stern Gang or Stern Group).
A three man 'center' of this extreme Jewish group had approved the killing: Yitzhak Yezernitsky (the future Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir), Nathan Friedmann (also called Natan Yellin-Mor) and Yisrael Eldad (also known as Scheib). A fourth leader, Emmanuel Strassberg (Hanegbi) was also suspected by the Israeli prime minister David Ben-Gurion of being part of the group that had decided on the assassination.
The Lehi was led at the time by Yitzhak Shamir, who was later to become Prime Minister of Israel.
Here's another disturbing fact: Menachem Begin, the sixth Prime Minister of Israel, was responsible for the bombing of the King David hotel in 1946, which killed 91 people. It was known for decades as the deadliest terrorist attack of the 20th century.
That guy looks way too similar to Larry King.
Also apparently he shares a private jet with Bond villains.
Moshe Dayan, also member of the Haganah.
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And the same man signed a peace agreement with Egypt.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought of that notorious terrorist bombing that doesn't get mentioned a whole lot anymore.
One thing which doesn't excuse the attack: they did warn the hotel specifically; the goal was to blow something up, but not to kill people (though the deaths are their fault, and it was still murder).
The IRA used to do the same thing. They're still terrorists.
So he's like the Éamon de Valera of Israel.
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I'll probably get downvoted to hell, but here goes anyway:
Do you really think this is terrorism? The bombing was against a hotel, but only because the British forces were using an entire wing of the hotel. It was in response to a raid from the British forces and not just a raid but a raid on Jewish homes and organizations just after the end of World War II. Some British soldiers even made references to gas chambers while conducting the raid.
Additionally, a warning was sent in time for people to leave the hotel before the bombing, but the British didn't take action.
Now do you really think this is in the same vein as blowing up trains in Europe, federal buildings in Oklahoma, or hotels full of civilians in Mumbai?
EDIT: Damn, -6 for a non-trolling, respectful counterpoint? So much for reddit being in favor of reasonable discourse.
The Unibomber sent warnings too.
Also, the raid you're referring to was in response to other bombings/kidnappings, which were a response to even more atrocities, and so on. The British just didn't get up one day and yell "RAIDING PARTY!!!" AOE style either. And instead of bombing people, they arrested them.
Is killing in the same vein as more killing? Yes.
Is killing in the same vein as more killing? Yes.
Of course it is. But killing and terrorism are different things. Are IEDs in Iraq terrorism? Of course not. They're targeted toward an occupying force. There's a clear difference between targeting combatants and targeting civilians, no?
Maybe its about the same as blowing up buses and shooting ineffectual rockets in response to raids of homes, land theft, kids being murdered at checkpoints and human rights abuses by a government that's on your ancestor's land?
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As a disclaimer I want to say that there is no justification for that attack. That being said, I have to agree with you for the terrorism aspect. Terrorism, though has many definitions, is best summed as a violent act against non-combatants for political reasons. Even though it doesn't suck any less when soldiers are victims of the attacks, it wouldn't be considered terrorism if they were the intended targets.
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I'm not quite sure what you're on about, but:
21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public.
There were 13 soldiers, or "combatants" killed. Under your definition, it was terrorism.
This shows just how nuts [Lehi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group\)) was:
In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in transferring the Jews of Europe to Palestine, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandatory Palestine.
This shows the history of the Jewish culture, they can't get enough, and they just want more and fucking more. They wanted Britain out so they could take over the entire state, and that's practically what happened anyway.
Generalisations do not help this issue at all.
Jewish culture? Fuck you. Lehi was not all Jewish people. Is Bin Laden all Muslim people? Is the Westboro Baptist Church all Christians?
Israel - A nation of Terrorist thugs.
Generalizations - the province of morons
Huh, funny. If they had said that about say, Iran, or Afganistan, I suspect I wouldn't be reading your comment.
Isreal is a terrorist nation run by psychopathic war mongerers who have commited genocide, many war crimes, and feel like they can get away with it due to what happened in World War 2.
And I for one think that is the worst atrocity to happen to the Jewish people since; being hijacked by religious terrorist extremists claiming to be victims.
I am for the 100% abolishment of the Isreali invader's illegal settlements and returning them to the Arabs.
Rationality - no place in a circlejerk.
Not that I condone these actions but painting in broad strokes like this doesn't make people likely to hear you out.
When a nation is founded and been run by so many violent terrorist thugs its hard to conclude anything else, no?
You mean like Hamas?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in transferring the Jews of Europe to Palestine, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandatory Palestine.
Next time Zionist demand confirmation that Hamas is a terrorist group bring these guys up.
Wow, and Israel criticizes Sweden for being pro-Palestine...
Palestine should criticize Israel for being anti-Sweden.
I'm making this my new Christmas card.
The Swedish should criticize the Palestinians for being anti-Israeli.
Why would Sweden criticize someone who vouches for them?
Yes because events over 50 years old (all the time of course) guide popular opinion of a people 50 years into the future.
/sarcasm
You'd be surprised. When did that whole Holocaust thing happen, again?
Does Israel hate Germany?
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Have fun with more places like Malmo sprouting up where Jews were driven out and are complete shit holes.
That's some neat propaganda you've read. The jews in Malmö have not been "driven out", and any such hostility comes from Muslim immigrants. Nor is it really a shit hole. Parts of it are, but not large ones.
How is that relevant to what Fourbits said?
In terms of Swedish heroes nobody beats Raoul Wallenberg. Murdered by the soviets. EDIT: Link spelling
It's not a competition.
It's the internet, of course it's a competition.
For the most pointless of reasons too - basically no reason at all. None that's known anyway. Seems to me that they arrested him for whatever reason, and rather than admit their fuck-up in arresting the diplomat of a neutral country, Stalin and/or Beria just decided to make the problem 'disappear' as they'd done with so many others.
Certainly a testament to the sheer arbitrariness and brutality of Stalin's purges and murders.
I love how no one hates on the Soviets for that, but it's perfectly legitimate to dislike Jews and Israel for this.
Plenty of people hate the Soviets for that.
Yeah, that's an insane allegation. The Wallenbergs are the wealthiest and most powerful family in Sweden, and have been for a century. More than the Bernadottes, even, which is saying something given that it's the royal family.
The facts about what happened to Wallenberg, together with the downing of a Swedish spy plane, were some of the biggest issues in Swedish-Soviet relations during the Cold War. The first things Russia did to reset relationships after the fall of the USSR was to come clean about both of them. The murder of Bernadotte had comparatively small effects on Swedish-Israeli relations in the long run.
Not that there's any point arguing with an idiot who equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
Edit: I realize you're focusing on the post above mine, but I thought I'd answer yours due to a lack of yellow messages appearing on my screen atm.
I'm neither pro-Israeli nor pro-Palestinian, really. But I do think that the world treats Israel/Palestine in a very different way than any other country in a similar position, for better and worse. I can only imagine that exacerbates the current problems to make them seem far more dramatic. For example, from 2000 until 2008, around 4600 Palestinians (not just civilians, but total) were killed by Israelis. During the recent conflict in Sri Lanka, in one final push in 2009 alone, more than 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed. Yet, we haven't formed international committees deciding how their country will be run following the conflict.
I'm sure that although people shouldn't always equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, you shouldn't be so quick to reject it, either. If you just take a look at this thread as an example, how many of the hidden posts say "Israelis etc" instead of "Jews"? People who have decided to hate Jews end up hating Israel. It doesn't necessarily (or even frequently) work the other way around. But it doesn't mean that anti-Israeli doesn't make them anti-semitic.
I'm pretty sure the Soviets were actually not very popular for the entire duration of the existence of the USSR. Besides, they didn't elect the man's assassin to be their leader, as happened in this case.
the man's assassin was not Shamir, the entire organization was led by him, and the organization did the assassination.
he was prime minister in 1983-1984 (that's almost 40 years later), after very problematic election results which his party didn't actually win.
however, his party formed a coalition with alignment (so they have over 50% of the seats) and alternated choosing who gets to be prime minister - first Shamir, who led Likud, then Peres, who led Alignment.
also, people don't vote for prime minister in Israel - they vote for a party. they have even managed to elect relatively anonymous people in certain cases, like Olmert after Sharon went in a coma (because he was the replacement leader of Kadima).
Last I checked, most people hate the Soviets.
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I hope people realize that Wikipedia is dominated by Zionists. The Red Army Faction, for example, is considered a terrorist group, but Lehi and Irgun are just "paramilitary" groups.
True. There's even courses on how to edit wikipedia to a more Zionist slant without getting banned.
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'Cause anyone who disagrees with you must be part of a Zionist conspiracy...
You don't downvote for disagreements.
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Yep, there's a certain brand of pants-on-too-tight, always-right-about-everything jewish fucktard that thinks that flocking to Reddit and downvoting any comment which that points out stuff like this is pleasing Jehovah, or something
It's shit like this, militant zionist groups!
"If you're a militant zionist group and you do this, I hate you."
militant just seems redundant there.
Not all militant zionist groups were terrorists, the largest one, the Hagana, wasnt. They actually sent Hagana militants to the British Army to fight the Germans.
and the leader of the group who killed him later became the prime minister of israel.
wat.
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Still the same guy 40 years later.
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And Yitzakh Rabin. And Anwar Al-Sadat.
Erm... I wouldn't put Sadat in the same list as Gandhi.
I wouldn't either, but they were both killed by radicals who believed they betrayed their cause in favor of a rival group.
Gandhi was not the saint he's often made out to be. See, e.g., Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity.
That book is BS and a hatchet-job. While Gandhi had his shortcomings (he was human after all) they were nowhere near as bad as what the author (possibly influenced by the anti-India Khalistan Movement) makes out to be.
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The Jews did that too?
What about the sinking of the Titanic?
It was a Jewish iceberg that sank the Titanic.
yeah, iceBERG
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Salute to this man. I doubt they make diplomats like this anymore who placed humanity above everything.
"It is the way of the world that goodness is often repaid with badness."
-- Alex Haley (Roots)
Good quote.
Of course, there's a good chance he plagiarized it.
"The worst thing about internet quotes is you never know who really said them" - Mahatma Ghandi
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"Tesla's 'internet' kills elephants, mine provides memes...also, it's now called the 'Edison' - Thomas Edison
"Kill one man, and it's a tragedy. Kill a thousand, and it's a statistic."
Ironic then that he produced a quote that makes you think for a sec(good) via plagiarism(bad)...it's almost like he's trolling us!
Im jewish so dont take this the wrong way, but how come you never hear the term "jewish terrorists"?
Possible reasons:
Because the person who said it would get sued, along with the media outlets that print it, until they remove it and/or post a retraction?
Violence by the group in power usually isn't referred to as terrorism, but rather policing, or peace-keeping, or defending settlements, etc.
Because the person who said it would get sued, along with the media outlets that print it, until they remove it and/or post a retraction?
By whom? If someone's a terrorist and you call them a terrorist, that's not slander and he'll never win the case.
The Jewish Defense League If you have the money to fight the case, and depending on the state you're being sued in. In the United States very few people would openly criticise Israel, it's a silent taboo to be anything but pro-Israeli. In the UK and some other countries, if you are sued for Slander or Libel, you are presumed guilty until you prove your innocence. Furthermore many smaller institutions (the ones more likely to break from the norm and report these things) will not have the money to survive a lawsuit, even if they might win it.
Dude the most powerful corps, merchant banks and lobby groups are controlled by people in favour of the Jewish cause. But ssshhhhh don't tell anyone because that would raise suspicion...
Can't... tell... if... sarcastic/trolling.
In Sweden, slander is slander even if it's true. Well, I suppose we might have to choose another word for translating the crime if "slander" literally means it has to be untrue.
If I had to guess it's because in the past Jewish Terrorist simply meant a terrorist who was Jewish, but recently the term is mainly used by racists and nobody wants to touch that with a 10 foot stick.
There are some nasty ones still around outside Israel, but are quite fringe figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League
Inside Israel, their are extremists, but for the moment they are allied with the government. Should that alliance split, expect trouble, he price tag campaign of the settlers is just one indication of what to expect.
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I am disgusted that the state of Israel, which was founded partly so that the Jewish culture would have a state capable of securing itself and preventing the horrors of the Shoa from ever happening again, and which prides itself on ethics and justice, has tormented and dehumanized another ethnic group for its entire existence.
I am disgusted that our (U.S.) congress wholeheartedly welcomes and encourages the war-mongering Prime Minister Netanyahu in his rape and theft of the Palestinian people's land and livelihood. How can a just state support this?
I am disappointed in Obama generally, but he at least attempted to stand up to Israel on their refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians, only to have his authority undermined by a congress that cares more for their careers than justice.
TLDR: Israel is bent on destroying another culture just as their own was almost destroyed, and the U.S. is determined to support them. I'm disgusted by that.
I am disappointed in Obama generally, but he at least attempted to stand up to Israel on their refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians
While Obama was in power, the United States was the only country on the UN Security Counsel to veto condemning the illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine. And to this day, Obama doesn't even wish to acknowledge Palestine as its own state. He's been terrible to them, and taking a moderate position that was once considered conventional isn't going to make up for all the shit he's advocated.
"While Obama was in power"
Hah. You make it sound like he's doing something new here. Try "During every administration since Reagan"
And to this day, Obama doesn't even wish to acknowledge Palestine as its own state.
Mostly because it isn't.
Well, that's true. But he doesn't acknowledge that it should be.
Well, they're bent on destroying another culture just as that other culture is bent on destroying them. I believe that's what war is, isn't it? Not saying Israel is right (definitely not), but the countries around them would LOVE to destroy them.
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They are pretty intent on wiping out Israel's Arab past. In 48 they drove out Arabs from the country, in the 50s they seized their homes and demolished their villages, in the 60s they moved into East Jerusalem and the West Bank and the whole thing looks set to be repeated.
While the op didn't support his argument with facts, most off the statements made are generally true. Both sides need to learn how to share...they are brothers more or less.
anythings permitted while creating a new state...unless your palestinian.
Or Chechen. Or Basque. Or Tamil.
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Not everyone. It is mostly just Israel that makes them into martyrs. The rest of the world spends a lot of time not killing Palestinians.
"Militant zionist group"
Lets call them what they are: terrorists.
Facts very stubborn thing...
Facts are simple and facts are straight Facts are lazy and facts are late Facts all come with points of view Facts don't do what I want them to Facts just twist the truth around Facts are living turned inside out Facts are getting the best of them Facts are nothing on the face of things Facts don't stain the furniture Facts go out and slam the door Facts are written all over your face Facts continue to change their shape
Humanity - not even once.
"He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the militant Zionist group Lehi (commonly known as the Stern Group or Gang), while pursuing his official duties. The Lehi was led at the time by Yitzhak Shamir, who was later to become Prime Minister of Israel."
Sadly that dose not surprise me.
All the early leaders of Israel were terrorists. Israel was created out of terrorism, by terrorists.
Yeah, I totally remember how zionist terrorists held the majority of the UN hostage as they voted for creating Israel in the first place
Why is this getting downvotes?
"a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem
You won't see that terrorist word mentioned about the current state of affairs in Israel now.
And you never see Hamas labelled as a 'militant anti-zionist group'.
It is disgusting that his murderers were immediately released and went on to become officials in the Israeli government. This is like putting salt on the wound.
The group that killed Folk, (The Lehi) also worked with Nazi's during world war 2. History is stranger than reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whoa, and the leader of the group later became Prime Minister of Israel. This is all kinds of disturbing. Thank you for the link.
The Israeli public has a history of electing war criminals and terrorists. Ariel Sharon's part in the Sabra and Shatila massacre was in the open long before he was elected.
No, dude, shut up. The Jews are the VICTIMS.
You know, I can't help but compare the story of the jewish people to the story of abused children that become molesters later. I really hope they will manage to outgrow their trauma.
"Those to whom evil is done do evil in return"
-W.H Auden
Well, though hope springs eternal and all that...60 odd years have not really shown the world that they have outgrown their trauma. With US and it's MSM's assistance, they have managed to sell their paranoia strategically.
Good luck with that belief. The Israelis know exactly what they are doing, and it has nothing to do with being victims. They are stealing the land of the Palestinians. Israel was founded on stolen land, and the Israelis have never ceased to steal more.
Today you learned that child sexual abuse probably does not create pedophiles, despite the extremely widespread belief that it does
Relevant...
I think there's hope on the horizon, personally. I saw footage of a show by Henry Rollins in Jerusalem where he let loose a heart felt rant about just this, and the audience overwhelmingly agreed. At least the youngins are sick of this...
Somewhere in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXfyMc4XJGE I'd get a timestamp but I'm at work. :)
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I'm an Israeli, and I've been saying that for years.
There are not many Jews today that actually had to live through the WWII genocide. I don't think anyone who didn't personally have to endure the genocide can claim to be traumatised by it. We all know it happened, we all think it was horrible, we all hope it will never be repeated. But when young people start using the WWII genocide of the Jews as an excuse for their actions, I have no pity on them. They are just horrible people trying to think of valid excuses.
Once they outgrow their trauma, the Palestinians will be the new molesters.
You know nothing about the Israeli society. The liberal front is headed by Ashkenazim Jews, the right wing Israelis mainly comprise of Jews that came from Arab countries. So its just the opposite. We are called "European Goim", "whiteys", "European agents", "Ashkenazi traitors", etc..
But you dont give a flying fuck, all you are interested is in expressing dramatic ironical anecdotes. "Oh look the Jews were victims of the Nazis and now they become the molesters themselves, as if imitating the Nazis". That what you were hinting at, I and most European Jews in Israel are not even remotely like the Nazis, you ignoramus bastard.
And while I will keep up the fight, objecting the occupation, supporting Palestinian causes, demonstrating at Sheik-Jarah, you will continue blaming me for imitating the people who killed my grandparents families. Seriously, fuck you.
No, it's only in your antisemitic mind that you find comfort in thinking that the victim is now an oppressor.
Not all Jews live in Israel, and/or blindly support its actions.
your not the jews we're looking for.
we jews are the biggest scapegoats of all time. extrapolate from there.
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Dear Sir or Madam,
You have made a post that dares to criticize Israel. As you know, this makes you an anti-semite.
I would like to point out the following facts that are relevant to the discussion:
[x] 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
[x] You are an anti semite.
[ ] Israel made the desert bloom and we have beautiful beaches.
[x] The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.
[x] All arabs want to push the Jews into the sea.
[x] Israel is a shining example of democracy and ethnic discrimination does not exist.
[ ] Suicide bombers are killing Israeli citizens and collective punishment will put a stop to this eventually.
[ ] The IDF are showing remarkable restraint; They have the power to nuke the entire region but choose not to.
[ ] It is the fault of the Palestinians that they don't rebuild infrastructure fast enough after we bomb it.
[ ] Arafat walked out on camp David, proving that 100% of Palestinians want war, not peace.
[ ] The Jews are God's chosen people™ and this is the land that was promised to us by a book.
[ ] It is not a genocide until hundreds of thousands of Palestinans are killed and we aren't even close to that yet.
[ ] 100% of Palestinians are terrorists.
[ ] The Arabs drove the Jews from their homeland thousands of years ago so it is about time for some payback.
[ ] Israel has killed fewer people than Iran or Iraq which means we are a peaceful state.
[ ] Carpet bombing an entire country is a perfectly rational response to the kidnapping of a soldier.
[ ] It's not a concentration camp, it's a safety wall!
Therefore, your claim of [Jews are not victims] is false and we should continue to send money and military support to Israel.
Yours sincerely,
AIPAC
P.S. you are an anti-semite.
Dear Sir or Madam,
I felt the need to improve the formatting of your list:
☑ 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
☑ You are an antisemite.
☐ Israel made the desert bloom and we have beautiful beaches.
☑ The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.
☑ All Arabs want to push the Jews into the sea.
☑ Israel is a shining example of democracy and ethnic discrimination does not exist.
☐ Suicide bombers are killing Israeli citizens and collective punishment will put a stop to this eventually.
☐ The IDF are showing remarkable restraint; they have the power to nuke the entire region but choose not to.
☐ It is the fault of the Palestinians that they don't rebuild infrastructure fast enough after we bomb it.
☐ Arafat walked out on Camp David, proving that 100% of Palestinians want war, not peace.
☐ The Jews are God's Chosen People™ and this is the land that was promised to us by a book.
☐ It is not a genocide until hundreds of thousands of Palestinans are killed and we aren't even close to that yet.
☐ 100% of Palestinians are terrorists.
☐ The Arabs drove the Jews from their homeland thousands of years ago so it is about time for some payback.
☐ Israel has killed fewer people than Iran or Iraq which means we are a peaceful state.
☐ Carpet bombing an entire country is a perfectly rational response to the kidnapping of a soldier.
☐ It's not a concentration camp, it's a safety wall!
Love,
argv_minus_one
Anti-semite, even though used by many, does not make sense as a word. See my previous post a few comments up http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/hmpby/til_that_count_bernadotte_the_man_who_negotiated/c1wofni
Other than that, magnificent post !
You forgot to put: [x] Notice, how some folks here (including you, zaferk who put 4 comments on this thread) have an obsession against Israel, and you always feel the urge to "criticize" Israel by flooding Reddit with "discussions" against Israel.
And yes, like it or not, the comment you wrote is an hate post which gives you an entry to an ancient club of anti-semites pigs.
Yeah, because as we all know, we are always able to generalize groups of people by their elected leaders. Implying that Jews are aggressors through that use of sarcasm is unfounded. There are Muslim terrorists, Christian fundie nutjobs, militant athiest dicks, and everything in between. This does not mean that Muslims, in general, are terrorists, Christians are nujobs, or athiests are dicks. I'm not going to downvote you because you're entitled to your opinion, but please consider what you are saying.
-An athiest dick raised in a half-Jewish and half-Christian family.
My fathers family was Palestinian and lived in the area that Israel now claims, not the area they were originally given, but within the expanded area they took.
They were wealthy Christains, uninvolved in political bullshit. Israelis took their land and their home, but they didn't become terrorists or hate mongers, they left. They were lucky enough to have enough money and influence to depart the area. Guess where they moved? Lebanon. It took them an entire generation to recover from the expense of starting over, but they did it. Guess who showed up in Lebanon and flattened everything they had rebuilt 30 years later? Israelis.
And the whole time the Israelis cried "Terrorists! National Security!" and we looked the other way, the most we did was to "formally object" while still selling them weapons and assuring them we would defend them from retaliation.
So believe me, I have considered exactly what I am saying and I think my little sarcastic comment is pretty damn restrained.
-An agnostic dick raised by a man who had to flee two homes in two countries because of Israeli aggression.
He was elected, he didn't seize power. Which says that at least a simple majority of the citizens of Israel support someone who uses criminal, extremist, or terrorist tactics to achieve their ends.
Once again playing the victim card.
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This always bugged me:
Worldwide, 'Zionist' pretty much means a jew-supremacist; In Israel, Zionist refers to anyone who loves Israel. What the world calls 'Zionist', Israeli people call 'extreme right wingers'.
And yeah, we hate them too. They're the troublemakers, the ones choosing to occupy places Israel gave back long ago. Also, since they're citizens, the army is forced to protect them, hence, scores of soldiers are wasting their time protecting an illegal encampment.
tl;dr: When you say Zionist you refer to extreme right wingers, and Israel hates those
You're right, I should have said Israelis, not Jews. I don't actually have a problem with Judaism as a religion or those who follow it. I have a problem with the political entity of Israel and those who empower and support it. Of course at the time I was just being a snarky dick, not looking to start a conversation.
You sound like a fucking asshole.
You, on the other hand, sound like a sweetheart.
Haha, like my jewish friend. Always bringing up the Holocaust, even though he is 30 and calling people antisemitic.
Got the wrong soda order at Denny's? Waitress must be racist.
His car has a blown tire? The racists at the car lot sold him a bad tire.
It's always either an excuse or a lie. This is probably why I have started hanging with other people.
Yes, we Jews are real cry babies.
So what, if for hundred of years, every time that there was some need to blame someone, it was always the Jews. So what if six million, including a million and a half children have been murdered in the Holocaust.
So what, if during WWII the allies didn't make a single bombing flight over Auswitz-Birkenau to stop the murder of the Jews.
Yes, those Jews are definitely cry babies. It's really not fair that they won the 48 war that the Arabs started.
Yeah, so what.
How does any of that justify the daily murder and war crimes committed by Israel using US dollars?
Really? That sounds like a paranoid exaggeration.
Fuck the jews.
No dude, shut up, the Jews are terrorists and clearly this statement is just further justification for disliking them on this website.
Menachem Begin, former Israeli PM, was head of a Zionist terrorist group known as the Irgun when it committed the King David Hotel bombing and the Deir Yassin massacre.
Aerial Sharon also commanded the IDF during the Qibya massacre, which lead to the killing of 69 Palestinian civilians.
Israel's leaders are scum. They always have been.
All except Yitzhak Rabin. He's the only leader of Israel to my knowledge who seriously attempted to bring peace to the region.
They killed him for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin
Just like USA killed JFK.
Since when are we using "they" to convey the distorted beliefs of one murderer?
Actually only those two, and Sharon was not a terrorist, he did not commit the Sabra and Shatila massacre, those were the Christian flanges. So how did this one PM became a tendency? Also notice, that the government of that same Israeli public you blame for electing terrorists actually legally labeled and outlawed the Irgun, in response to the murder of Bernadotte. from wiki:
Yeah, sounds like they're really sorry.
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At least Sharon grew to be a little more pragmatic with age. I think had he not gone comatose, a lot of the nonsense that has taken place in the past few years could have been avoided. Unlike Netanyahu, he was actually working towards a Palestinian state and this pissed off Likud a great deal.
Sharon wasn't workiing toward anything. None of them are. They are pretending to seek peace as a way of diverting criticism while they go on killing Arabs and stealing Palestinian land and resources. The only peace they want is total control and dominance of the entire region.
That isn't true. Many Israelis are absolutely appalled by the treatment of Palestinians. While I wouldn't place Sharon in this particular group, he definitely wasn't a Revisionist Zionist by any means either.
Sharon, wasn't he the guy who provoked some Intifada thingy by showing up at some place somewhere?
Oh he sure did, but the resulting conflict was something that he clearly was not too fond of getting deeply entrenched in, much to the chagrin of Netanyahu's faction of Likud (who probably would've fully annexed Gaza for Israel had he been PM at the time). So Sharon broke away and began Kadima, he demolished the Israeli settlements in Gaza and was looking at ways to negotiate the territorial disputes in the West Bank before he suffered the stroke. Not saying Sharon was a "friend" of the Palestinians by any means, but given his background he abandoned many principles of the ardent Zionism which had previously defined his career. So I think he deserves at least some credit for that.
Sharon went to pray at the holiest site in Judaism, which pissed off the Muslim Arabs (they called it "judaizing al-Quds").
But really, the Second Intifada was planned by Yassir Arafat the July before when he walked away from negotiations.
Strange thing is though, that Sharon was much more moderate and willing to talk to the Palestinians than Netanyahu is.
Are you American? If so, this is ironic.
I despise Bush as much as any rational person should, which is why I find it odd that I'm in the position of 'defending' him. Bush's war crimes didn't come until after he was elected: to liken America electing him to Israel electing a known terrorist who led the group that assassinated a national hero... come on. The only war-related item on Bush's resume surrounded how he managed to not go. He had a history of being a spoiled kid, a shitty businessman, and a terrible leader, but he definitely wasn't a terrorist.
It's not even close. Even in agreeing with your overall point--that >50% of Americans are ignorant, smallminded people who I'm ashamed to be associated with--it's still clear that your point is ridiculous.
I wasn't trying to insinuate that Bush is responsible for an equal number of atrocities, but merely trying to highlight an amusing element of the condemning tone of the thread.
I agree it's a poor analogy, but Bush was elected again after his "war crimes".
Or it's perfectly apt if he didn't vote for Bush, or isn't patriotic.
I agree with him, and I'm British. This country elected Tony-fucking-Blair, yet I see no problem with my opinion as I hated Blair from the moment I understood his policies and actions.
I am not a patriot so I feel zero connection to the rest of the population here. They voted in Blair, they're idiots, except the ones who didn't.
Hmm, OK, I wasn't old enough to vote for Blair, but my parents certainly did. They were pretty supportive of his actions pre-9/11, and it seemed to come as a major disappointment when he did what he did next. Being as you just called my mum an idiot, can you explain what you saw that they did not? Who did you vote for?
I'm not implying that I disagree with the sentiment of the original post (quite the opposite, in fact), only that making a statement like that shows a bit of (unwarranted, in my opinion) audacity.
That would be a fair comparison if Bush, instead of tooling around as a drunken frat boy, had gone to Vietnam and was an officer commanding the My Lai massacre. And then put it on his resume.
I wasn't comparing the two leaders, but the lack of a consistent connection between the elected leaders and beliefs of every single one of a state's citizens.
No, its coincidental.
Definition of Irony from Mirriam Webster. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony)
a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity.
As an American (i.e. someone from a country that consistently supports Israel regardless of repercussions AND elects leaders who would be labeled as 'war criminals' or 'terrorists' by some), I would expect him to avoid condemning Israel(i leaders).
Semantics on the internet are fun!
WTF is wrong with Israel?
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Outnumber, I guess you would agree with me that the Israelis are very similar to the Palestinians, who also frequently elect and support war criminals.
They are in rather different situations, though. The Palestinians are being driven from their homes, terrorized and killed in droves. Their radicalization is largely a consequense of this. While the Isrealis do suffer from the conflict, they do so in a much smaller degree than the Palestinians while being the more powerful of the two. I think the Israelis sit with the key to resolv or at least decrease the violence of the conflict, but they often seem unwilling to make any serious steps towards peace. I'll agree that there are few good guys in this whole mess, though.
The reason that the Palestinians are being killed in larger numbers than the Israelis, is because Israel has a more effective military. Hamas would like to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews, but they don't have the military ability to do so.
I see no reason to think that Palestinian radicalization is due to the death toll, as the terrorist war (the first intifada) came at a time of low levels of violence. If anything, Palestinian militancy is due to the intense islamist brainwashing that occurs in the palestinian territories. Ever since Palestinians are children, they are subject to cartoons like Hitler Mouse who convinces them to mass murder jews.
Absolutely - which is why America should stop supporting one side unconditionally and stay out of the whole corrupt mess.
So THAT'S where the Palestinians got the idea to elect Hamas! I can just see them sitting around saying "Why not? The Jooz do it all the time"!
Fuck you, you soggy cunt.
What an intelligent and well thought out argument, thank you for enriching the conversation.
This is an internet forum, you pretentious ass. What did you expect?
You might think Israeli are ellecting only sons-of-bitches and blame them for that, but miss to understand that they are ellecting sons-of-bitches that, they know, have their best interests and safety in mind.
That's all all anti-Israeli motions ever goes down to: "How dare they defend themselves and their interests".
I think there are better representatives in Israel that can combine caring about the Jewish people with not having been a murderer and lunatic. I think that believing otherwise is to underestimate the Israelis quite a bit.
I started to write something in-depth about the need for understanding and such, but i stopped myself. Let's just say that if one thinks one's interests are being served by perpetually increasing the spiral of violence in the region, then one is dumb.
The path between defending one's interests and contributing to mutual destruction can sometimes seem narrow. Especially to violent people with a history of fundamentalism. That's why you don't want those people up top with the launch buttons.
Yours is probably the most balanced response I've seen on any discussion about Israel. I agree whole heatedly. I think the current government (and past governments) are corrupting the national mind. Israelis have been conditioned to believe the world is against them, and any idea external to the hive is bound to be rejected on the ground of us against them mentality.
You missed a bit
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Loud words. Care to elaborate?
So I guess you're in favor of Palestinian rocket attacks, since they're just defending themselves and their interests.
Tziki, shall I remind you that there are two parties in control of the historical "Palestinian territories":
Hamas (Gaza; regarded as terrorists)
Fatah (West Bank; interested in two state solution)
And then there is Israel (Israel, West Bank, Gaza; not interested in Peace).
When I say that Israel is not interested in peace, I am talking about the current administration, which we can see through the extremist views of Netanyahu and the far right Likud (spelling??) Party. And by the way, Israeli's have killed far more Palestinians than pathetic rocket attacks from a starved and deprived state. The only people to blame for extremist groups in Gaza arising (and firing misguided rockets into Israel), is the Israeli's themselves, and their extreme methods of containing the Palestinian people in Gaza and to a lesser extent in the West Bank.
TL;DR: Depravity = Extremist Elements arising; its as simple as that.
"I was just following orders".
seventy one down votes... ahh so there is hope for humanity
Ya, and defend their genocide of another people... Jews are the bottom of the barrel to me pal, if anyone should know better and be held responsible, it's the Jews. The Nazis didn't finish them off so they are gifted another, occupied, nation and they in turn become not much better than the nazis themselves.
Dont lump all Jews together, they arent all the same.
If you want to help the Palestinians, or at least not make yourself such an easy target for anti-defamation league astroturfers or others who might call you a bigoted ignoramus, please don't conflates the political ideology of Zionism with the religion of Judaism.
shhh dude here on reddit we try to be subtle with our anti-semitism
it's anti-ZIONIST not anti-jew
It's not. fucking. genocide.
You are a fine example of success of modern brainwashing technics.
Yeah, unlike the English, Spanish, etc with the Native Americans and Africans. Those people must have been complete saints!
Why is it that whenever somebody criticises Israel, somebody else always feels compelled to say "WELL, SOME OTHER PEOPLE DID THAT TOO!" So what? That doesn't resolve anything. Plus, when were we talking about England or Spain? We're talking about Israel.
And when other countries are being criticized, no one stands up and says "Yeah, well Isreal is just as bad!"
Don't criticize a country for its past as if it's the present. Otherwise you have to take other countries into account for past mistakes and judge those countries with the same logic.
There is a slight difference in time frame to be noted.
Nonsense, didn't you hear, other countries past atrocities basically excuse these people...in the present.
Well that makes it all better.
We're talking about Israel right now, stay on subject.
If you're going to judge a country by past mistakes you better do the same to the rest of the world. Otherwise you're just being racist.
Just what the defendant in nürnberg said.
Ah, here it comes..Equivalency. Always the last excuse.
This statement reminds me of something my parents would say to me as a child. "Two wrongs don't make a right."
Your logic also means that you shouldn't judge a country NOW by past mistakes. Make up your mind!
TIL you can commit any crime you want as long you are jewish politician in post holocaust era. (Proof me if i'm wrong.)
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Who wants to trouble oneself with facts when there are so many generalizations to be made. CHOP CHOP!
"All generalisations are false, including this one."
-Mark Twain
that's so ridiculous, you think it had anything to do with him being jewish? not that they are even remotely similar but look at Yaaser Arafat, he was a terrorist and then was elected into office for the PA, or Frank Aiken (IRA) who went on to serve as Irish Minister for Defence (1932–1939), Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures (1939–1945), Minister for Finance (1945–1948) and Minister for External Affairs (1951–1954 and 1957–1969). He also served as Minister for Lands and Fisheries.
It's important to note that the IRA mentioned above is not the same group that operated in more recent years. The name has been used by several groups.
It is important to also note, in light of the current war on terror, that Irish Americans openly held fund-raisers, unhindered by the American authorities, to bankroll the IRA while they were committing atrocities both in Ireland and mainland Britain.
you are correct thank you for pointing that out however they still fought a guerilla war against the crown in Ireland from 1919-1921 and had an assasination unit who operated against police invovled in intelligence work in Dublin
People like to be lead by their returning champions of war. It's one of our more idiotic traits, as a species.
I don't know Eisenhower was a pretty damn good president, and he was anti war. He was probably a rare bird though when compared with the other returning champions of war.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Another example would be the MK in South Africa.
Here you go
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Here you go
Roman Polanski is a politican as much as M. Night Shyamalan is a director.
TIL Jews use the race card more effectively than all other nationalities
Try proofing before submitting.
Bernie Madoff? That French dude who got arrested last week? Moshe Katzav?
> No capitalization
> "Proof me if i'm wrong"
Sure is third-world Arab in here
Anti-semeitism on my reddit? No way!
And this is where reddit moves from criticism of a State to blatant anti-semitism.
TIL that reddit likes to generalize and assume things based on fringe groups and interesting statistical outliers
In other words, it is like saying all americans are fat or all muslims are terrorists and should not be trusted. Both of which are not true, although, Americans are really fat!
Like the Prime Minister of Israel
Actually, they weren't "fringe groups" proven by the fact that their leader was the PRIME MINISTER of Israel.
He completely disbanded from them when he was prime minister, though he remained fairly right wing. Obama was a panther in college...
Not to be that guy. But you generalized Reddit based on one person's comment and 10 upvotes. You are right though, so have an upvote.
Militant but not "fringe". The group responsible, Lehi, was lead by a future prime minister and a future Knesset member of Israel.
Your right! And Jews are cheap and evil, Muslims ARE all terrorists and the Chinese can be used as calculators if kept in a backpack.(see Peter Griffin)
"Come on..."
pokes with pencil
"Do math..."
And according to Wikipedia, that group, worked with Nazi representatives during World War II, offering to attack the British in the Middle East in return for safe passage of the Jewish population of Europe to Palestine, and the establishment of a Jewish state.
ಠ_ಠ
Not really surprising they killed the Count, seeing as they forgot who the bad guys were
The British also collaborated with the Nazis initially.
Well, it's not like 6 million British were exterminated by the Nazis
Sure, the British only lost 67,100 civilians. (More than Palestine has lost during its decades long conflict with Israel).
But how is that relevant? The attempted collaborations occurred long before the Nazi atrocities were known. Neither Neville Chamberlain nor Lehi could predict the future. Why is it incomprehensible they would try to appease Germany initially?
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Likud party.
Surprise, surprise
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Wow, this explains a lot!
There seems to be quite a lot of hate built up towards Israel (constant killing of Palestinians not to mention stealing of their land, also the Flotilla incident from last year, etc.). I wonder how many redditors or even other people (*when making anti-Israeli comments) know that most of Israeli leaders have been associated with terrorist groups? It seems to me as an obvious reason to what has been happening all this time.
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wtf
All political leaders of a people fighting for independence are called "terrorists" by the regime they are fighting against.
The British Empire of the time when the sun never set on it has produced a lot of terrorists. During most wars of independence, locals used guerrilla tactics (against soldiers and officials) which are easy to call terrorist acts (which are against civilians and not soldiers or officials). All former British colonies which are now independent had former "terrorists" in the first few governments. Including the United States of America, India, lots of Arab counties and yes, Israel.
The current Palestinian leadership are all terrorists too. Except of course, assassinating government officials and soldiers is not the same as killing civilians, but don't concern yourself with facts.
Please note that the "Palestinian Leadership" is split in two, Hamas and Fatah; Hamas is considered to be a terrorist organization, while Fatah (in control of the West Bank), are looking for peace with Israel, and a two state solution. Let me remind you though, that it is Israel, especially under Netanyahu, that have been continuously against peace, as we have just seen. Jingoist Zionists in Israel, are the true terrorists, keeping all the peace loving Palestinians and Israeli's hostage, for their own crazed demands.
Good one! That explains why Fatah has refused every single peace proposal ever put forward and has their own terrorist wing, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade!
mmm... Actually they have refused so called "peace proposals" because they were 100% in the convenience of the Israeli's and not in support of the Palestinian plight at all. One should remember that it is the Fatah leadership that has continued to be in support of peace talks, but have finally been boycotting them, since illegally built settlements of continued to spring up on occupied territory, a very legitimate concern for the Palestinian people.
Fatah is associated with the ex PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was a terrorist group for decades. Their leader was Yasser Arafat, a war-hardened terrorist with the blood of many innocent civilians on their hands.
The amount of peace-loving palestinians is very low, considering most surveys (conducted by israeli or palestinian media organizations) quote the support for suicide bombing at around 40-50%.
Please don't just say things like "40-50% of Palestinians are in favor of suicide bombings", unless you can back it up with clear, linked evidence.
Also I am very interested to know how Fatah are terrorists? If your going to start calling Fatah terrorists, then we should all remember the even bigger terrorist in the room, Israel.
Terrorism is defined as:
"the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."
That sounds an awful like the current regime in Israel under Netanyahu, using the Israel Defense Force to intimidate the Palestinians, by locking thousands of them into small cells, where children are then turned into tomorrow radicals. I hate Palestinian extremists just as much as I hate Zionist extremists. Personally I am all for the Fatah proposal to give all Jewish settlers, Palestinian passports if they want to continue living in the future state of Palestine, I don't hate Zionist settlers as much as I hate fundamentalist ones, that attack Mosques and run over children with cars.
So please save me the argument that the Palestinians are "terrorists", when the fundamentalist Israeli's themselves are hard hypocritical terrorists as well.
So "very low" as in, the majority of the population?
It's odd what things like Operation Cast Lead will do to a population.
It's almost like after seeing so many of their family members killed by Zionist military fucks that these people give up and realize there is only ONE way they can fight back.
Shoot a bottle rocket toward Israel and watch a school or hospital get blown to shit full of kids. Yeah, the problem is in Palestine. Once the Zionists "eliminate" that problem (aka: finish their ethnic cleansing) I guess you browncoats will be happy.
You're a fucking retard and I hope you die slowly and painfully, like the lives of all the innocents in Palestine you are so happy to see killed.
Israel is against surrender, not against peace. Usually, after one side wins an armed conflict, it's the other side that surrenders, but the Palestinians are crying "unfair" and are demanding Israel withdraws to a poor tactical position so they can restart the war from a better start. Fatah, a terrorist organization which killed many civilians, is using Hamas, a terrorist organization which still denies Israel's right to exist at all, as a bogeyman: give us what we want or we'll just side with Hamas on your terms of surrender.
Surrender??? Have you lost your mind man? No one needs to "surrender". The British did not "surrender" when they left India in the late 1940's. I am against Palestinian fundamentalism, I believe Gandhi style peaceful civil disobedience is much more powerful and practical, and it brings out the beast in the system, such as the British in India, Apartheid in South Africa and the white supremacists and racists during the Civil Rights movement in America, to name a few.
And if you're going to call Fatah, a terrorist organization, please note that Israel is just as much of a terrorist organization. I disagree with Hamas, and their firing of rockets, but I understand their suffering and pain. Anyway with the opening of the Rafah border I hope this will alleviate some of their depravation...
It's true guys. Let's be realistic here. Where do you begin negotiating with an orginization whom at the very outset makes your utter destruction a central point in their charter. There is nothing to talk about until that point is cleared up and they stop teaching their children to hate in their schools. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=216374
The current Palestinian leader is Mahmoud Abbas, how is he a terrorist?
Palestinian President Abbas, who denied the Holocaust in his doctoral thesis, says he oppose any Jews in a future Palestinian state. Meanwhile, one out of 5 Israelis is an Arab.
How would that make anyone a terrorist?
Personally I think it reveals that Israel is desperately looking for excuses not to make peace, and has been reduced to looking at doctoral theses.
He is nominally in charge of armed people who engage in terrorism. When US soldiers (or operatives handled by intelligence officers) engage in false flag operations and kill people in order to change a foreign government's policy, their commander in chief is responsible. Atrocities have been committed in the name of the American people. The British peoples. The French people. Any other you care to name. I assume that all governments that survive are guilty because in order to survive they had to win in a dirty fight. You also live in a country whose existence and continued security depends on atrocities having been done and being done now. It's just that a lot of money is used to make Israel the only bad guy, while millions of people die elsewhere and are unreported on the news.
This sentence discredits your whole case. By this reckoning, Bibi is a terrorist.
You forget that every Israeli adult is obligated to serve in their military and can be seen as part of the Israeli war machine.
You could see it like that, if you were trying to justify the intentional murder of civilians, among them children and the elderly, who are obviously integral parts of the Israeli war machine, where would the IDF be without their senior citizen brigades?
The children are obviously collateral damage but their parents are utlimately to blame for involving their offspring in their colonialist designs. If you resettled your family in a violently disputed warzone as part of a colonialist invasion fully knowing the risks you only deserve contempt for being so morally reckless when they inevitably get blown up. As for the Passover incident, you don't get a free pass at colonial violence because of your date of birth. This is stunning hypocrisy considering that Israel has been fervently chasing down elderly suspects of Nazi war crimes with little regard for their age. And the IDF have never slaughtered innocent Palestinian children or the elderly. Oh wait, they murdered 300 children in Cast Lead alone!
Did you know another terrorist organization blew up a boat in Israeli waters, killing hundreds of Jewish refugees? That's fanaticism for you.
that's taken totally out of context. It was 1940 and the Patria was docked in Haifa port filled with 1,800 jews who had escaped from Nazi occupied Europe and were caught coming into Israel by the British. Beecause they didn't have entry permits they were due to be deported to a british camp in Mauritus on the Patria. The Hagana (definately not a terrorist organization) attempted to disable the ship so that it would be unable to leave Haifa harbour. Unfortunately they miscalculated the amount of explosives (they were most probably using a homemade expolsive as they did in most of their missions, which can be unpredictable) which caused they ship to sink sadely killing aproximately 200 people.
Thank you for the explanation, all to often things like this get missed and the wrong people are accused.
Whew! That's a relief. It's good to know I'm not responsible when I attach explosives to something with the intent of "disabling" it and a bunch of people get killed instead.
no one said they weren't responsible, just the way it was phrased made it sound like they were actually trying to kill the people, which they weren't. They were attempting to save them from deportation.
Well, you're not a terrorist. If a controlled demolition goes wrong and causes a building to fall over on its side rather than implode, we don't say that was a terrorist attack. Just a colossal fuckup.
Couldn't agree more. Better those Jews should have been sent back to Nazi occupied Europe where they would have been safe. If only the Hagana had instead just gotten out their ukuleles and sang "farewell to thee" waving to them as the ship sailed back.
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Citation needed.
edit: Feels good being downvoted without for no reason.
You doubt that Yitzhak Shamir ever became Prime Minister?... He linked an article full of citations, which part do you doubt?... Granted, he was one of three leaders who authorized the killing.