Teacher’s aide fired for refusing to hand over Facebook password | ZDNet
zdnet.com/blog/facebook/teachers-aide-fired-f...
zdnet.comPosted Apr 1, 2012, 5:31 PM UTC
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zdnet.comThis word "voluntary," I do not think it means what he thinks it means.
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in the absence of you voluntarily granting Lewis Cass ISD administration access to you[r] Facebook page, we will assume the worst and act accordingly.
It's like how you don't have to let the police in your house without a warrant, but if you don't they're allowed to assume your house is packed full of corpses and arrest you
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And yet, the idea of privacy is equally valid in either case.
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Well, no, because the police at least have the authority to search your house, provided there is just cause. A school admin does not have any authority to invade your privacy.
There difference is that currently your Facebook, and for that matter Twitter and email, password does not fall under a protected category of privacy in matters of employment. Where we notice yet another difference: your Facebook password is not technically a private matter.
It doesn't matter what's real. It only matters what's legal and illegal.
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which should give them even LESS right to impede on your right to privacy
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But in public schools, in certain contexts, they can be viewed as government agents. I doubt that actually matters in this case, however, since this is an employment issue.
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That isn't true. They have to hear or see something that gives them probable cause. Although lying isn't out of the question.
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...yes, thanks; that is indeed not how the law actually works
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I hate this thin skinned bullshit. This reminds me of a kid in middle school who apparently told his parents that we'd watch pop movies (Ace Ventura, etc) after math exams. His mother threw a fit and we then had to get permission slips signed just to do anything.
My parents are the polar opposite and wanted an all encompassing "He's got a brain, if he's uncomfortable with doing something or watching something it's his decision" slip, but the school wouldn't let them sign anything like that.
I'd love to see the picture in question to know how it could possibly be worth destroying this womans career. Watch who your facebook friends are, especially as a teacher or law enforcement. Any career that expects you to not act as a normal human being, basically.
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Yeah...When my buddy got a job as a teacher I had to play nice and not post about his fascination with penises every time he left his phone out in the open. Ruined my fun :(
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This article has the picture.
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It probably implied that this aide was a sexual being or had bowel movements. Both a big no-no for working with children. Because you know if there's 2 things children just can't handle, it's sex and/or poop jokes.
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Surely it is against the terms of service of facebook to give anyone else access to your account?
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It is. It's also against TOS to solicit the account information of another user.
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Yes, but neither of those things are illegal. However, FB should terminate Colby's account for violating the TOS.
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Never said it was.
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It is a felony to access facebook with the details obtained in this way though.
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Not unless it is "voluntarily" given. It violates Facebook's TOS, sure. But it's not illegal.
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Yes, but someone who doesn't use facebook isn't bound by the TOS.
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someone who doesn't use facebook
c'mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon
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I never have had a facebook profile. Boom, muthafucker.
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Am I still a facebook user if I deactivated my profile?
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I wonder if Facebook can sue employers that pressure Facebook users to violate the Facebook TOS.
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This is why you never use your real last name.
POKER FACE What facebook profile?
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or just make it so noone can find you when they search for you
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There are like, fifty thousand people with my name on facebook. It is brutal trying to locate me.
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....which is why facebook will never steal search from Google....
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crap... my facebook vanity url. Nothing shows up if my facebook is deactivated, right?
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or have a decoy account with the same name and picture of you, but nothing on it... which is what I have for just such an occasion.
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I've recently set up an account like that. Lol, I was a bit pissed at the time (did it after reading a story like this) and all it contains is my name and a rant about how all of the information interviewers are prohibited by law to ask about is commonly found on a profile, so f off. In a nutshell.
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And your plan is to provide the password to that account? You'd probably be better off showing your real one with r/spacedicks in your hobbies.
Or maybe not..
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You should make your account have links to nothing but various Rick-Roll links and have done with it. If they want to look at that, more power to them.
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I still want people to be able to find me if they know what to look for.
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Exactly. I use my middle name as my last. Not really for this purpose. It's mostly to keep annoying people i went to high school with from trying to add me.
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facebook is just social spyware.
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Fuck the parent that complained...
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I'm sorry, but if my kids went to school with this person and I saw a picture like that, I would have an issue, too. Here is the real fact of the matter that Captain Hindsight could help us all with: If you didn't want to get in trouble with your employers, then you shouldn't have friended people on facebook who can get you in trouble. I will never understand why people friend their employers, friends of their employers, teachers, or even parents on facebook. Nothing but bad news in all those groups.
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I work for a Ronald McDonald House and I do not friend co-workers, volunteers, patients, or patient families. When people ask to be my facebook friend, I send a polite message back saying that I keep my personal profile private but if they want to keep in touch with me, they are welcome to email my work address. I've never had a problem, except for an occasional sarcastic comment from a co-worker.
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That whole "hiding kids from sex because they aren't ready" thing is bullshit. Teach them now to solve the problem later.
People need to grow up and smarten up. Kids, adults, everyone.
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I don't have an issue with TEACHING kids about sex, but you don't teach them via an inappropriate photo of the teacher's aide openly placed on facebook. The teacher's aide totally has a right to privacy, but if they didn't want to cause controversy, then why didn't they smarten up and not post that photo when they have parents and friends of their employer as friends? It's just so fucking stupid.
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I have two potential responses to an employer asking for my Facebook password:
First, Asking for someone else's password is a violation of Facebook's terms of service, so if anyone does you can report them to Facebook. Not sure what would come of that, but at least it's something.
Second, and probably more legally weighty one: employers are not allowed to ask questions that would reveal your status as a member of any of a number of protected classes, such as veteran status, disability status, religion, etc. I think it could be easily established in court that asking for someone's FB password would violate that prohibition.
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Which is why someone is about to likely get sued. Any labor lawyer with a pulse is salivating at this story, assuming there is proof.
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Yep. This sounds like the ACLU's best suit of the year.
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It has come time to be more careful about who you accept money from than who you pay it too.
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I can't believe one of her friends turned her in. Dick move
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I'm sure a fair percentage of her friends list (or the average facebook user's friends list for that matter) are simply people she met at one time rather than real 'friends.'
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Exactly. Let this be a lesson that being a friend on facebook doesn't make you a friend irl. Also, DON'T FRIEND EMPLOYERS, FRIENDS OF EMPLOYERS, TEACHERS OR PARENTS. You will avoid drama by keeping these folks far away from your facebook profile.
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This is good evidence for why you do not friend parents of students. Or the students themselves, if they are old enough.
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or co-workers
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I would generally agree with you, but I do have a few co-workers as friends on Facebook. Where I work is very laid back, and we go out to bars and such together fairly regularly. I try not to post things that could seem offensive in general, since I have several family members and family friends that can see it.
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A parent and Facebook friend of Hester’s saw the photo and complained to the school.
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"She will have a tough time given that there is currently no law barring her employer from asking for access to her Facebook account...".
What? There's no law barring an employer from asking for your house key and, if you have one, your wall-safe combination.
That in no way means that they can fire you if you don't provide them.
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I would just ask them to place their request for my password in writing. I would say that I use a password that I can't remember, but I have written down. So all they have to do is write the request, and I'll send back the password.
Once I have it in writing they are asking for access to my protected-class information like race, religion, gender, and sexual pref, I let someone else inform them of how big a mistake they just made.
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Soon after, Colby wrote Hester a letter, a part of which said the following, according to WSBT: “…in the absence of you voluntarily granting Lewis Cass ISD administration access to you[r] Facebook page, we will assume the worst and act accordingly.”
Hester plans to use the letter she received from Lewis in her legal case against the school district.
This school district is so screwed.
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They can fire you for that if it isn't a protected status or similar. Is asking for your house key illegal? Or rather, what law would that violate?
They can fire you for no reason as well which is why you should never fire someone for a reason unless you are pressing charges/have to.
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I'd delete the profile. If you can delete the pic what's the point of access? What were they trying to accomplish? I don't get it.
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totes agree. wonder if they'd try to trump up "tampering with evidence" charges if it got that thick in the thicket. but I'd probably go home, delete the account and then setup a completely fresh one with the password !sn00tyb00typolice23! and give them that.
Or you know, I would just reference the facebook TOS @ https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms
You will not share your password, (or in the case of developers, your secret key), let anyone else access your account, or do anything else that might jeopardize the security of your account.
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You've essentially solved everything ever. You should send her lawyers this in the mail and attach an invoice.
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I'm fairly certain all of my advice is useless. But the check is in the mail.
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I would let someone called reginaldbuxley represent me. It sounds a suitably grandiose and high faluting name to my ears.
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wonder if they'd try to trump up "tampering with evidence" charges if it got that thick in the thicket
It's nosy school officials not a police investigation. There is no "evidence" to be tampered with because there is no criminal investigation. You could change the profile, delete whatever you want, tell them you did it, and there is no way for them to bring charges against you. Simply put, a bureaucrat working in a school has no authority to bring charges against you.
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I both understood this and agree with you. That is why I said "tampering with evidence" since it isn't a police/criminal investigation. There might be something in her contract though that makes her refusal to comply a more serious issue. I'm not a lawyer so I tend to "quote things" in an attempt to say "you probably shouldn't listen "to me"".
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What is this 'there is no law against requiring employers requiring people to give up their passwords' stuff? How about adding and abetting illegal access to a computer system - isn't that still against the law?
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Well, the DOJ wants to prosecute people for violating Facebook's TOS by using a pseudonym, but they've never said anything about employers asking for a password... even though that's also a violation of the TOS.
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Yes, it is against the law. You could sue them or try to charge them under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
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"You" couldn't, Facebook could.
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Facebook can't either but, a state's attorney could.
To clarify: yes, Facebook can sue them. No, Facebook can not charge them under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
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I swear, this irritates the shit out of me. A person's personal life is theirs and theirs alone. A employer should care not about anything, except how that person performs at his or her given profession.
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I hope facebook make good on their promise and sue the shit out of the person responsible to send a message.
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…in the absence of you voluntarily granting Lewis Cass ISD administration access to you[r] Facebook page, we will assume the worst and act accordingly.
What.....The....Fuck....
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Not only is this a violation of privacy, but it is a violation of proper security protocols and violation of facebooks terms of service. You do not share passwords under any circumstances. If an account (on any password protected system) is suppose to be used by multiple people then set up multiple passwords into that account. If you can't set up multiple passwords to a single account then chances are it is only supposed to be accessible by one person.
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Sounds like a wrongful termination lawsuit about to happen.
I hope she sues the shit out of them and the school system looses a shit load of money and people will ask for the administrations heads. These people deserve to have their teeth kicked in.
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No, that doesn't help anybody.
Yes, the person asking for the password and initiating the termination should themselves be terminated.
The point of the school system losing money is that no one will notice or care otherwise, so unless this happens the administration will keep their jobs. Because Americans (especially parents) are a bunch of selfish twats who only care about the money, not about ethics.
I don't think a school system losing a shit-ton of money due to a civil rights violation would mean everyone keeps their jobs.
I disagree. You're punishing other Teachers by removing money from the school system. Fire the person responsible and give the Teacher's aide their job back.
Even better, take this to the Supreme Court in the State (maybe all the way to Federal) and pass a law making it illegal for Schools to request passwords for employees online accounts (Facebook; Email; Youtube; Twitter; et. al.).
Mmm... generalizations. Not all Americans are the same. It's an unfortunate happenstance that in order to get anything of significance done in the US you need to throw lots of money at the problem. It doesn't mean Americans only care about money, it just means the system has been so corrupted by private interests that money is the factor that matters most.
I love how the second point here speaks for itself.
Yeah, couldn't have asked for a more perfect line to quote...
But than hoaw will the kids lern to spel good? Seems cownter pruductiv to me.
Facebook promised to litigate for anyone who lost a job for refusing to provide their passwords, so she should probably talk to them, see if they'll put their money where their collective mouth is.
Where did you hear this?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/27/facebook-threatens-to-sue-employers-who-request-job-seekers-account-passwords/
Except not: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/facebook/facebook-no-plans-to-sue-employers-asking-for-your-password/10802 (from the links at the bottom of the article)
FB should ban all companies and Managers that do this from FB. FB pages are free advertisement for business, if they were going to lose that they may change their policy.
Right. There have been a welter of stories like this but so far no action from Facebook. Pragmatists - or cynics - might argue that they are not going to do anything to threaten their IPO now scheduled for May but this may now rank with 'dont be evil' as one of the great tech sell-outs
I'm sure you mistakenly worded this, otherwise why would Facebook sue the people who lost their jobs?
Indeed I did. Fixed.
She has "at-will employment", most likely. If you're an "at-will" employee, the employer can fire you "for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all".
Naturally, there are statutory exceptions like the Civil Rights Act and American with Disabilities Act, so they can't fire you because they find out you're gay or something. But there are currently no laws on the books saying that a job can't fire you because you won't give them your Facebook password.
I'm NOT saying that this is just or that the firing is morally right. But I am saying that because she was an aide and not a unionized teacher, her employment was very likely "at-will" and thus, she would almost certainly lose a wrongful termination lawsuit.
This communication does not constitute attorney client privilege and no relationship is thereby formed on this basis. :-)
There's very likely a law that says that you may not ask an employee about their sexual orientation, marital status, whether or not they have kids, etc. Any reasonable person would know that all of this information would likely be present in a facebook account. Thus, the school asked for all of this information that they are legally prohibited from asking about.
They can try to claim that they fired her for "no reason", but no one in a court would believe that load of bullshit.
There are no laws prohibiting employers from asking about protected classes (race, religion, national origin, sex, etc. - sexual orientation is not included in the federal list, and only protected by local laws in some places). What is illegal is making decisions about hiring or firing based on that information, so interviewers generally steer clear of those questions to avoid accusations of discrimination. One of my favorite bloggers explains this a little more.
Excellent blog article! Very clear, concise and well-written.
I assume that's the argument she's trying to make now, but it's not one she'll likely win. The law flexes for common sense and a judge's interpretation.
If this was a civil rights/protected status wrong termination case of an employer saying (to use your example) "wait, you're GAY? I'll fire you!" and the woman going "no, I'm not gay!" and then the employer saying "oh yeah, prove it! Give me your Facebook and I'll check!"... then you could make the valid argument that "they were asking for info to discriminate against her".
But that's not the case.
While an employee at the school, she posted a photo of a sexual nature involving a co-worker which a parent saw and led to a formal complaint to the school. This alone, based on the company's policy, is grounds for termination. However, not following your own set termination procedures can cause a lawsuit just as easily, therefore they couldn't fire her on hearsay based off a complaint. So they wanted to see the offending photo and make a judgement call, but they couldn't because she refused to give them the credentials.
That is what led to the termination and that is what a judge will likely rule in this case.
"If you're an 'at-will' employee, the employer can fire you 'for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all'."
This can't be repeated often enough. Too many employees don't really believe it's true.
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They can't terminate you for not breaking a law when they tell you to. Giving out your password is a violation of the ToS you agreed upon when signing up for FB, therefor they are asking you to invalidate that by giving up your password.
Breaking a website's terms of service is not breaking the law.
Breaking a contract? It's not an arrestable offense sure but it's definitely not legal.
Facebook should drop huge money/lawyers on this case to help here.
Set the precedent NOW, or they will lose their customers.
People will just shutdown their facebook accounts if this is allowed to happen.
better call saul