Uncle Kage threatens Dragoneer over Dorsai Harassment
twitter.com/MommaSciggles/status/263289680290...
twitter.comPosted Oct 30, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC
22158
twitter.comAdditionally: Although this was first reported by Sciggles, Dragoneer verifies that he has been contacted as well:
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/263299856221741056
Kage apparently sifted through con registration data in order to use their private e-mails, rather than the publicly available ones:
https://twitter.com/MommaSciggles/status/263303245336825856 https://twitter.com/MommaSciggles/status/263303338697838592
I sure hope that they don't back down on this issue... And am curious if Kage will hold to true to his "people that don't agree with me get banned from AC" form.
18
Sciggles responded to Kage's email. I did not. My beef is not with Kage, nor Anthrocon. I don't want to get into an argument or a fight with him. I'm not mad at Furfright, JUST the Dorsai -- and trust me, if this is resolved to a reasonable degree, I will follow up my post to tell people that Furfright IS a great con, and IS one they should go to. But I can't do that with the Dorsai still there. No attendee should be shoved, no attendee should be threatened to be arrested over trivial issues.
But yes, Kage pulled our information from Anthrocon's database to discuss a matter that did not involve the convention directly to tell us to be silent, as well as some other comments. We're not happy about that. I find that to be a misappropriation of the registration information.
19
Did you actually get threatened with a ban? Again: I don't think you've done anything wrong. I don't think you're trying to harm any con. You've seen a problem and you're trying to get it addressed. You're handling this the Right Way. However, I'm well acquainted with the way that Kage tends to 1) Interject himself into places where he doesn't belong, and 2) Handles any hint of dissent with an iron fist.
Again, speaking personally, I'm no longer advocating that the Dorsai be removed immediately. They should be been given an opportunity to prove to the community that are capable of policing their own. If they can't do that, they have no business providing security for any con, furry or not. The bigger problem I have is that everybody in a leadership role wants to sweep the issue under the rug rather than address the concerns of the community. Again, I don't believe that you're trying to harm Furfright, but when Furfright staff comes on to reddit and flames/downvotes the people making the accusations... It doesn't look good. At best it's poor PR, at worst it's a cover-up.
13
Neither Sciggles nor myself were threatened with a ban. However, Sciggles told Kage she felt she deserved to be able to tell the truth about what happened and that she shouldn't be silenced and Kage's response was "As you wish, I can tell the truth, too." Sciggles has NEVER met Kage. Ever. She's seen him (once) at a Delware Furbowl meet, but that's it. While Kage and I have a known (and rocky) history, I'm not sure why he chose to threaten her with that.
Again, I can not emphasize it enough, we do not have issue with Kage or Anthrocon.
I will not return to the con so long as the Dorsai are in place, but I /will/ accept the removal of all Dorsai involved in the incidents. These issues have gone on too long and, in previous conventions, have even been reported (by myself!) to Sgt. Steve. Nothing happened. Ever.
14
I will not return to the con so long as the Dorsai are in place
I don't blame you. However, if I were you I would go back if I received some assurance (from either the Con or the Dorsai) that steps are/have been taken to remedy the issues you've raised... Just to verify that it wasn't all pleasant talk, and that there was some action behind it.
9
His misappropriation of private information that you have a reasonable expectation to be used, and given permission to be used, only for specific business purposes likely falls under a violation of federal privacy laws. Since they don't have a published privacy policy, they're governed under PA and federal law, in the customers favor of "expected use for business purposes."
Using that information for a personal matter is a violation of your privacy rights and could subject anthrocon to state/federal fines.
7
Okay guys, I'm gonna round up some links that may clear this up to people who are confused.
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Dorsai_Irregulars
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3969859
http://thatdamnwolf.net/post/34515437698/so-furfright
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3971538/
That should clear things up a bit for you guys.
18
This is fucked up...
Kage is losing any respect I had for the guy.
13
You had respect for that control freak?
5
Well, no.
10
There are downvotes on both sides of this discussion. Can someone explain to me why he's cool/bad/popular/a total control freak?
3
There are furries on this subreddit and on FA that virtually worship him. I don't understand.
3
Explain to me exactly why you think Kage is a control freak. If you don't mind.
-1
Besides the fact that he puts his nose everywhere it isn't wanted if he feels that it impacts his image of the fandom, tries to dictate what the fandom is about, attempts to extort vendors in order to allow them to sell at the con, bans anyone that disagrees with him from the con, and in general is a complete and total hypocrite? He just emailed somebody, abusing private information, to interject on something that is none of his business because he thinks he's the face of furry. The guy's a complete and total tool.
5
My opinion of Kage remains unchanged. I believe he has done plenty of things for the fandom and I respect him for that.
All in all I think both sides of the issue just need to stop participating in this flame war/circle jerk of FA Journals, Reddit posts, and various "threatening" emails. Playing the victim never solves anything. Being the bigger person usually works pretty well in this kind of situation. Attacking Kage or Dragoneer alike won't fix a damn thing.
I hear conflicting stories from both sides so I can't believe either one. And I think what Kage was basically trying to convey in his email was that this was not a public matter. This kind of issue really had no reason to spread as far as it has. Like I said, I still respect Kage for all he has done, but that doesn't mean I worship him or think he is more than just a human being. I believe his involvement was much larger than it should have been. However, I feel like his intentions were not as negative as people have been describing. And besides, we are all just humans and humans make mistakes from time to time. (this includes everyone; The apparent few Dorsai neanderrtals, Dragoneer, and Kage.)
I've been a part of this fandom for long enough to see these drama shit storms unfold numerous times. I think sometimes we all have to just realize that we are all here for a common good. And once again, if the same amount of time was put in contacting con officials or actually investigating the incidents as was put into typing all of this bullshit, things probably would have been taken care of already. Food for thought. I look forward your downvotes...
-1
Looks like we found out what Sandy really was- an incoming shit storm.
13
[deleted]
1
Furry is serious business. Having said that, <3 drama - can anyone summarise what happened?
11
Furry drama is like a train crash in slow motion. The more you try to ignore it, the more the sounds of twisting wreckage and mortal shrieks of terror just pique your morbid curiosity further.
14
One of the Dorsai allegedly assaulted (by putting his hands on someone and shoving them) an individual at FurFright. In addition, people have been complaining about Dorsai staff threatening to have people arrested for various (seemingly harmless) things like "standing near a door," and at least one of the Dorsai has allegedly lied about being hotel staff in an attempt to get personal information from furry convention attenders.
6
I'm mostly interested in seeing the email Kage wrote.
5
5
Thanks, Dragoneer. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. I've got your back.
3
"Furries are fucking dumb - coming to theatres Summer 2013"
1
For those looking for proof, here is the email conversation between Kage and myself.
I am not happy that Kage told me to shut my mouth concerning the ongoing issues with the Dorsai nor that he backpedaled on the issue of obtaining my private email address. If he was honestly only trying to contact Dragoneer, then why did he not say anything when I mentioned that I never met him? Dragoneer and I both have public emails posted on our FA profiles for anyone to contact us on. Regardless of who he was trying to contact, using his administrative powers as the Owner/Chair of the convention to obtain my private email address out of convenience or personal desires is just unprofessional, inappropriate, and quite possibly illegal.
10
This isn't the first time Kage has tried to badger someone into retracting their complaints about the Dorsai.
9
yep, kage keeps personal vendettas, such as not allowing bad dragon to sell at anthro con just "because" (never mind all the binders of 18+ art all over the artist area. He seems nice but this is sadly showing his true colors.
7
Actually that was because of Pittsburgh laws...also Kage doesn't "run" anthrocon. He's only a figurehead.
Also, everyone in this fandom has known the Dorsi are just plain bad for years. I'm glad everyone is getting riled up about it. I hope this will spur quality people to volunteer for security when they can.
0
There's a big difference between adult art and giant dildos. Just saying.
-5
not really? both are 18+, and both were hidden unless you were actually buying something. the bd toys were in suitcases unless they were being put into a black opaque bag (no logo) or people were looking at them. BD were there for years without any problems. Its hypocritical to allow things like "Adult dragon panel" and scores of 18+ art , fetish accessories, etc but then single out bad dragon.
5
I hate how reddit is so ruled by the majority and I think it is a shame your voice has been basically silenced due to downvotes. This is the exact thing I said when I read his comment. The selling of art pieces and such materials is quite a bit different. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like that is the kind of thing someone can buy online, where they are not in a position to affect our image as a whole.
-1
Honestly, Kage seemed to be acting pretty reasonably. There ARE official channels by which these complaints could have been raised.
-1
And as stated before, we've raised the complaints over the past five years. Of them, the complaints when unanswered for four years. After being threatened to be arrested, seeing people assaulted, being blamed for the 3am "fire"...
I followed the official channels. Nothing happened.
11
How is it completely reasonble to steal my private information from Anthrocon's registration database to contact me concerning this issue when this doesn't involve Anthrocon and when they have a contractual agreement with their customers not to use private information in such a way? No one who registers for a convention would ever nor should expect their information to be used by convention staff for personal reasons outside of the convention. The methods Kage used and his email to me was completely out of line.
I am entitled to speak my mind about my convention experience and I will not be personally returning to FurFright until something is done about the Dorsai.
11
I was referring to the content of his message, rather than the means by which it was delivered.
-3
You're right, and these channels were used, but nothing has been done which is why this has escalated to this point. Plus, just because there are official channels doesn't restrict an individual from voicing their concerns or experiences - that's their right. This isn't China.
Concerning Kage acting pretty reasonable in this email - no, just no. This is a clear case of abusing power, not to mention, use of intimidation tactics to try and gag the truth.
10
I agree with you and NoGoodAbby on this. He came across as perfectly reasonable in this email chain, but the furry drama wagon rolls on.
-4
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I've actually sort of changed sides on the whole thing. I was originally more persuaded by Kage, because his message was (no offense) better written, but more and more I'm finding that complaints sent via official channels have been ignored for years.
1
yep, going through private info to get an email is probably against some agreement, but i doubt its worth it to pursue action about it.
-2
Either way the title is misleading. No one is being threaten here. And he makes a very valid point. Either way this is an issue that goes beyond this microcosm, because it clearly effects everything the DI works with.
-4
I feel the original email was an attempt to intimidation, and when Sciggles responded that she wasn't going to NOT tell the truth, his response of "I can tell the truth, too" was threatening. If you do... I'll do it, and you don't want that.
That's how we interpreted it the communication.
5
That's not threatening. Threatening would be, "I'm going to slap you," not "I want you to stop baiting." I'd agree with intimidation, especially because you and the other party have had a slight misunderstanding in the past. But it's hard to read into context like that through email because of the lack of emphasis. Either way I think he's trying to help but he's trying to go renegade Shepard for that help when he should clearly be going paragon for it. Perhaps he wants to sit down and talk about it to collaborate against DI or something? edit: Because this is clearly an ongoing issue with DI that is more then just FurFright.
The email thing is just silly though.
-1
Well then the DI needs to realize that the actions of their members could adversely impact their reputation. At a very minimum, if there's a member of DI out shoving people, another member needs to come over and tell them that's not cool. They need to make sure that when people go out representing them, that they are willing and able to conduct themselves in a manner that is above reproach. When someone does something to harm that reputation, they need to be removed and the DI needs to make it clear to the community that disciplinary action has been taken against the members involved (NOTE: If they had done this years ago, when the first accusations surfaced, we wouldn't be having this conversation). The fact that Kage seems to be against this speaks volumes. The fact that we're even having this discussion means that there is something fundamentally flawed about that organization, and I don't see anything wrong with shining a light on that.
3
There's nothing there where he's threatening you or asking you to shut your mouth... all he's asking is that you stop making a show of it and try to work out the issue privately. Which I honestly wish you could just do. This entire show is idiotic and pointless.
-4
Yes, thank-you. This is a circus....a PR nightmare all around.
-3
I agree with you completely, and here's an upvote sense nobody around here seems to think sensibly.
-4
Really. I mean, Fucking really?. Why would Kage center on you just two, even though there is a couple hundred of people bashing the Dorsai first, FurFright second?. So, how does Anthrocon/Kage fit in this equation?. Sorry, either Kage just fucking blew his public brain matter media image all over the wall of the internet, or you guys are trying to gain support. With no additional information (email), this gets filed in the "bullshit" inbox.
10
Kage and I have bad blood between us. But, given that, I don't know why he felt the need to send me that email. I haven't talked/dealt with him in years, and I try to avoid him because I don't WANT drama with him.
That said, Sciggles decided to post the email since Kage went after her.
http://www.reddit.com/r/furry/comments/12casv/uncle_kage_threatens_dragoneer_over_dorsai/c6ty5oq
13
Oow. Okay, apology for doubt, facepalm for Kage.
8
Doubt is always good. =3 I'd rather people doubt, but consider... then blindly always side with anything and everything. It's a good trait.
6
[deleted]
3
I believe Kage would contact them because they're the loudest about the situation and so they're the ones he would voice his opinions to as another prominent figure in the fandom. It makes sense.
0
Uncle Kage: (From eMail) "I would like you to stop baiting them, and I want the public attacks on the to stop".
Hmm. I'm still looking for my ballot where i voted for him for "King Emperor of the Furry Fandom, and kiss my oversized hairy balls, you lowly furfags".
Ah, here it is, behind ballot 34, "Vote NO to yell: 'How deep, SIR?!' when a Dorsai demands to kneel and kiss their asses".
10
Hmm. Not first time either: https://forums.vivisector.org/index.php?topic=270.msg5702#msg5702.
Well, you do need a cadre of middle aged, flabby, obedient Dorsai puppies to carry those bronzed, chariot sized balls of his. Glad I go to AC to see my FRIENDS, not to dry-clean his Rent-a-Doctor costume.
13
Sir, I declare you the winner of this thread.
9
I gotta be honest, that guy has been a condescending, pompous prick to so many over the years. He is the self proclaimed "voice of the fandom"? Not my fucking voice. guy has more skeletons in the closet then a mausoleum to boot.
3
On one hand, I couldn't care less, but on the other hand, with Kage, he mirrors a chap I know in the UK, who runs the largest Steampunk convention over here. Nice on he surface, an absolute cock underneath. Although Kage, did compliment me on my moustache once...
9
It's all about the 'stache.
3
If you say so.
2
Hmm. Some butthurt Dorsai/Kage supporters in the mist. All posts against them are getting downvoted.
I guess Kage is now "demanding" to downvote all critical posts of him or the uniformed manbabies attached to his teats.
8
We will drown them out with our upvotes.
2
That seems to imply he cares about r/furry. People do seem to feel rather self important around here.
1
It's not so much butthurt as the fact that Kage was calling for reasonable action and a calm solution and people are whipping up a shitstorm instead. I don't support the Dorsai but he had a point in his email.
0
if you look into it, you will see that reasonable requests have been ignored for years. I have seen many instances of bad behavior from the dorsai for years, and for years complaints have constantly fallen on deaf ears. To exacerbate things kage has a history of bullying complainers who gained enough attention into staying silent. He has a rather disquieting loyalty to the dorsai even over his own attendees. I would say that he has broached any illusion of reasonable and calm on this topic years ago and is in need of a severe attitude adjustment on the matter. (among other things)
2
Honestly, I don't understand what the whole issue is here but I am not familiar with the congoer scene or the politics involved (and from reading through all of this, I am someone glad!), but if even a quarter of what I have read passively about these security people is true and even IF it is only a small number of individuals in it that behave this way, the entire group needs to be dropped and security needs to be gotten from a company that will behave in a professional matter.
The issue is that, even if it is a small number of these Dorsai folk that are acting like idiots, the fact that they are not removed or punished or reprimanded in any way reflects badly upon the entire group... and rightfully so. I really, really don't comprehend what the whole issue is with getting security somewhere else, nor do I see what is wrong with talking publicly about things. I've got very little comprehension of the actual behind the scenes drama going on here but from an outside observer's POV, this is all pretty nonsensical.
It's also disturbing that Kage would dig through personal registration details from an unrelated con to locate an address that someone obviously doesn't want public. I am disappoint.
7
There is no context without the email. At this point you're all just circle-jerking Dragoneer.
6
I have no idea what's going on, but I brought the popcorn gifs.
6
probably the most sensible course of action i've seen here... >>;;
1
MommaSciggles:
[2012/10/30][14:42:06]
[[Translate]](http://translate.google.com/#auto|auto|Amazing, Kage just emailed me and asked me to stop telling what the Dorsai did to us at Furfright...what the shit is this?? 'google translate this tweet'): Amazing, Kage just emailed me and asked me to stop telling what the Dorsai did to us at Furfright...what the shit is this??
[This comment was posted by a bot][FAQ][[Did I get it wrong?]](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=tweet_poster&subject=Error%20Report&message=[Oops!](http://reddit.com/r/furry/comments/12casv\)%0d%0dPlease leave the subject and this link unaltered, but feel free to add a description here. 'report an error')
5
D-D-DRAMA
5
I thought this would end up with the end result of Kage dismissing the Dorsai from any future duty at AC. This new development came completely out of left field.
5
The bill for hiring a private security company for a convention the size of AC would likely be a direct hindrance to their ability to operate the convention at the level they are currently doing so. Smaller conventions with smaller floor space can get away with just a handful of security personnel for their Con.
The Dorsai provide a much cheaper alternative than a security company would. Economically this is why AC will no doubt continue to use them.
0
clearly cheaper for a reason if these allegations are true.
sigh why can't people just do their jobs without going on retarded power trips?
1
Was Kage even there at FurFright? I want to like Kage but something like this makes me lose respect for him..
5
IF it happened. "Writing" it happened is not the same as "proving" it happened (tl;dr eMail or GTFO).
-4
The email was posted.
2
I haven't really been to any big cons. Could someone explain what Dorsai is?
Is it an organization of some sort?
5
I was hoping there would be more info about what specifically happened; but I see more complaints (not saying they're invalid complaints, just they don't help with context).
Here's a petition I found that seems to explain what happened better: http://www.change.org/petitions/belic-bear-and-furfright-inc-discontinue-the-use-of-dorsai-irregulars-as-a-security-force-at-furfright
TL/DR: A fire alarm was pulled; Dorsai Irregulars took charge of the evacuation; several incidents occurred and the safety of con-goers was threatened.
Anyone feel free to straighten out any important details.
4
It's more than the fire alarm, though that was atrocious. They also have assaulted, harassed, and threatened congoers. I was personally harassed and followed after (and despite) having resolved an issue with them, and I witnessed an act of assault first hand. That's just last weekend, I've seen similar things every year FurFright has used them, and I've seen them at Anthrocon as well.
Here's my FA journal about it. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3971538/
5
Here is a link to my con experience http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3972215/
3
This is getting out of hand. FurFright needs to make a OFFICIAL PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT regarding how they RECOGNIZE there were issues with the Dorsai at the convention and they will WORK with them and the community to make a informed decision regarding the situation.
I've never been to this particular convention, but the convention staff is losing creditability and respect as they further to take charge and make a official announcement regarding this.
Well, they did make a statement here... I'll let you judge that for yourself.
I'm talking about a official statement from THE CON. On their con page. Until then, it's just the director that's speaking out, not the con.
I love how everyone is downvoting the living shit out of him even though he is making /very/ reasonable statements from his own perspective. Mind you, I only read about 5 of his comments, but most of those I had to manually expand.
Downvotes don't bother me, I just saw a post concerning my job and stated who I was and what I knew. In the first post I stated I was not there to discredit anyone but NOTHING was reported to the CON CHAIRS, issues someone might have had with security should be brought all the way to the top and not just with people that you know who work for the convention (such as Gavin who we are all friends with and is the Director of registration) or complained about in a journal. Also I have been a lurker on reddit for YEARS and a registered user for nearly 2 years....but to stir up drama Dragoneer and friends are making accounts just to stir up shit.
You want professionalism be professional yourself, contact Belic and Kgra directly (their contact info is on our website www.furfright.org ) they are right now working on an official public announcement, but remember what I just said....this is all brand new news to us, the people with the "problem" had time to write journals and get the people who follow them to get all riled up, instead of being an adult and actually trying to resolve the issue...it's more fun to whine and bitch about it online and be a victim.
No, that's not the way to respond. If I were you, I'd stop posting regarding this, the only good you are doing is a wrong: which is making the Furfright staff lose creditability. Let the convention make it's statement, and let that be that. Please stop trying to defend yourself, which btw, you wouldn't have to defend yourself if you stopped posting.
Yea, you are not talking on behalf of furfright, but you are showing that you don't know how to handle public affairs and regardless, you are connected to furfright anyway.
Just a little advice.
This is the last time I will say this. I have made complaints and issues known to Gavin, the Dorsai and others on staff over the past five years total. They went nowhere. After continuing to be told there are no issues, nothing is being done, no problems... nothing.
Bottom line, things went too far, especially when I'm accused of starting the "fire" that caused issues for damn near every single member of the entire con.
Isn't furfright a public event? What prevents people from complaining about their exeriences to others? I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how transparency is even a debatable subject anymore nowdays. It's understandable that people running the convention would be unaware of issues with security through. They wouldn't be ones harrassed if the security is doing so at all.
This brings to light that the customers/attendees as well as the panel holders are at risk for harrassment and that the whole 'complaints and suggestions of improvement' needs to be redone, either the people aren't using it or that the organizers simply don't recieve the feedback.
I'm sure the convention organizer will want to make the enviroment as friendly and enjoyable as possible, since that means more people will come and more profit/charity becomes available. I don't think change will come though, an everyone may just recieve 'a stern talking to' sadly.
Well, it's not the downvotes so much as the childish mentality behind them, especially on a topic that merits at least a fair amount of logical thought. It confuses me that this hasn't been reported before (assuming, of course, it hasn't, but it isn't my place to judge; it would all be hearsay anyways.)
I'd somewhat agree with you about the stirring up shit point, though, as I said elsewhere in this thread that posting emails /really/ isn't a good thing to do in my mind. Then again, and I say this in as unoffensive manner as possible, neither is calling them out for starting shit. You simply have to rely on people to make that deduction themselves or contribute to the discussion calmly; the logical ones will generally be able to take a step back and analyze both positions.
Personally, though, I'd definitely be frustrated in your position. People are getting pissed at you for representing something over which you don't (or didn't) have control and that sucks.