Program Review: GZCLP
Alrighty, here's that program review I promised.
GZCLP PROGRAM REVIEW
Lifting history:
I’m a 6’1, 22 year old male currently weighing around 190lbs. I first started lifting about four years ago. I started with Starting Strength at a bodyweight of like 140-150lbs and did that for about 8-9 months. My squat made good progress (went from 95lbs 3x5 to 245lbs 3x5) but everything else was slow to improve. After this, I sort of went into a period of on/off bs and made zero progress during that time. I just started lifting seriously again last year in February/March. I ran Greyskull LP from that time until about November last year, when I switched to GZCLP. I did not begin the program this way, but switched over about 8 weeks in I think.
During the first half of my time on Greyskull LP I had some bad analysis paralysis about squat form and so I didn’t really see much progress for that lift until later in the year. I made decent gains on Bench, OHP, and deadlift though. If I remember correctly, I also took a couple months off of pressing to focus on strengthening my back to help my shoulder. This was also in that february-march period, so for a couple months there I was basically just rowing, doing pullups, and deadlifting, and trying to squat while obsessing about form to the point of stagnation. I’m starting to think that only deadlifting for part of last year and being behind on my squat for so long may be part of the reason that I’m having all of these minor injuries. Either from bad hamstring mobility, back dominance, weak hips, or something along those lines.
I ran GZCLP for about 18 weeks before deciding to stop the cycle early due to a variety of minor injuries, the most recent of which being a strained upper trap.
Results:
I don’t remember my starting weight at the beginning of this program, if I had to guess, I’d say 175-180 lbs up to 190 now.
Starting numbers:
- Squat: 175lbs for 5x3,
- OHP: 107.5lbs 5rm
- Bench: 165lbs 5rm
- Deadlift: 315lb 5rm
Ending Numbers:
- Squat: 255lbsx1
- OHP: 120lbsx5 for amrap (I hit a higher set of 5, but had to cut ROM to get it, so I didn’t count it)
- Bench: 180lbs for 4x3 or 10x1+ with a double at the end.
- Deadlift: 347.5lbs for 10x1
Routine/ Modifications
I ran the program as written, 3 days a week except for the following modifications:
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After some discussion with some people here and in r/gzcl, I decided to swap out the T2 Deadlifts for paused deads in order to help reinforce better starting position and good form. I had a problem with the bar being too far away from me during the pull. I’m still working on it, but it’s gotten much better. I did them with an inverted rep scheme, 10x3 instead of 3x10, etc.
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Towards the end of the program I slowly started adding T3s one set at a time, like the protocol on cody’s blog.
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I shifted workouts around a handful of times in order to workout with a friend or my girlfriend. I would either end workout out back to back sometimes, or doing one part of my workout with him (T2 bench for example) and doing the rest the next day.
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I originally started with DB rows on bench days and Lat pulldowns on OHP days. I switched a couple weeks ago though.
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I made an effort to always warmup with 3-5 minutes of cardio and dynamic stretches.
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I think it’s worth mentioning that I missed a handful of days throughout the program as well.
Cardio/Conditioning
I made it a goal to do some form of either cardio or conditioning once a week but I didn't always reach this goal. I did manage to do some pretty good conditioning workouts with said friend, but I wouldn't say that I was always consistent.
The injuries:
Throughout the program I dealt with a nagging shoulder pain that I had already been dealing for a long time. Honestly, the only thing that seemed to make a difference for me was band-pull aparts. Lots of them. Like sets of 10 between my warmup and working sets for a total of like 50-70 reps per workout. I had a sort of epiphany day where I tried doing band pullaparts and finally realized what muscles I’m supposed to be using. Once I tried keeping these muscles tight while I’m benching, the pain was gone, and I hit a PR, and continued to hit prs afterwards for a while. I was excited to get over this, but I may have jumped from the frying pan into the fire, as I just strained my upper trapezius, and from what I hear this can negatively affect the shoulder.
Other injuries started popping up. Including: Knee pain during squats, back pain from overextending on a deadlift amrap, and middle back pain when I lay down. These all started popping up towards the end of my program which caused me to stop progression and start training around them instead. I managed to still hit a deadlift PR without messing myself up further, so that was cool!
Conclusion:
Honestly this was the most fun I’ve had with any program so far. I really loved the progressive rep schemes and working at different rep ranges. I wish that I had been able to run it injury-free, but I think I did pretty good all things considered. I hit a good amount of PRs along the way!
It also makes me happy to see that there are alot of other beginners currently doing the same program. It's definitely my favorite LP I've tried so far.
Goals for the future:
I’m now taking a small break in order to give my body some time to deal with these small injuries. When I return to training, I plan on giving u/GZCL’s General Gainz a shot. My goal is to hit 1/2/3/4 before I move away from home in the summer. Once I hit that goal, I plan to shift my focus to Olympic weightlifting from that point on. I have already started absorbing information and plan to do mobility drills and clean/snatch drills on off days.
Shoutout to everybody who gave me advice while I was running this program, including: u/BenchPauper, u/Laenketrolden, u/Howie_Wowie, u/61742, u/Just-another-scrub, and more but I can't remember everybody right now.
Edit: Forgot cardio/conditioning
Edit 2: Well, it seems my progress was not anywhere near as good as I thought.
As for what went wrong, the biggest thing I can think of was that I had aches and pains, but I was so afraid of making them worse that I felt the need to work around those "injuries" that may or may not have actually been injuries. I've also realized that I don't exactly know how much pain justifies changes in training. I had alot of "issues", but were any of them actually holding me back? Or did I just hold myself back? The only way I could justify my progress as being good was by believing I had injuries..
In the end I'm glad I did this and I really appreciate the honest feedback, but I'm kind of at a loss on what I plan to do next. I'm starting to realize that switching to GG might be a terrible idea now. You have to have a good grasp of what your limits are and be able to accurately gauge your effort for it, and I think I might not actually be capable of making those kinds of judgements by myself. Any thoughts on what I should do next?
Posted Feb 22, 2019, 8:15 PM UTC · edited
I don’t know how to say this without being mean, but I really am not trying to offend you here.
That is terrible progress for a novice, for 18 weeks. You didn’t post pictures so maybe your goals were just hypertrophy based idk. But in terms of strength, you changed the set/rep scheme on all your tests and the numbers end up being stuff you probably could’ve done 18 weeks ago if you extrapolate what you can from the old tests.
Also, these injuries you talk about, are they actually injuries? Is your tolerance for pain just extremely low? Check out Barbell Medicine’s videos on YouTube about pain. They can be pretentious at times (I’m a fuckin hypocrite) but there’s good information there too.
I’m only saying this because there’s a culture of support in this sub that is a really beautiful thing. But constructive criticism I believe is more important than just blind support and a pat on the back. You are obviously disciplined, so you are half way there. You can do better.
Well first of all I really appreciate the feedback. I was aware that by posting a program review I'm making myself open to a reality check which might have been part of the reason I was nervous to do so.
I was starting to realize this as I was writing this.
I'll go ahead and check out the video. It's possible that I was making mountains out of molehills. The only one that was actually diagnosed by a doctor was my upper trap strain. As for the others I guess I'm not sure.
You're right. Again I really appreciate the feedback.
You have a good mindset. You put on some weight. You can use that weight to get strong as fuck and I hope you do. Good luck man
I posted a review a while back of powerbuilder and the main takeaway I got from it was: You're not strong and you're kinda fat. It was what I needed to hear. I would say constructive criticism is a pretty important part of support. Lying to someone doesn't help them.
That’s part of the reason I posted this comment and I’ve been talking about this here and there around the sub.
I did all this shit too. I thought; “fuck it, I’m smart, if I optimize, I can get swole and strong and shredded all at once and do it all in 6 months!”
Well I can’t, and I wasted time trying to do that when I could’ve been doing one of those three things the correct way. So now I’m trying to make up for that wasted time by explaining to people, “hey, don’t waste your time!”
I think you can get big and strong at once, but definitely not shredded. I think you can maybe gain a little bit of muscle, if you're a noob...maybe even retain 95% of your muscle mass if you take the cut real slow and gradually reduce calories.
I guess it depends on the body fat % range that you consider shredded too.
Not sure what % is considered optimal now for slow gains and what % is desired for a healthy, lean bodyweight.
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Yeah, I hate posting shit like this, but it doesn't look OP made any progress at all, except for the OHP maybe.
I don't really see the point of these popular strength-focused beginner programs that's all very similar. GZCLP, SS, SL and GSLP, or whatever 5x5 variation you can think of.
Beginners should just go crazy high frequency, high volume & low to medium intensities (with the occasional periodized high intensities).
BLEST Novice programs or something similar to the beginner routine mentioned here would be prefered.
I really don't think the program was the problem. I think it was more because of me personally not trying hard enough and being a wimp about pain, tbh. There were also other problems I neglected to mention, one of them being that I made very little progress on the T3s.
I think the most important bit of training advice I've taken onboard this year is that you need periods of time where you are raising your floor and not worrying about your ceiling. Nobody really cares about your 1rm when you are a novice, the key thing is building your athletic base to give yourself a platform for the future.
Exactly. These 5x5 routines are good for peaking your strength with the muscles you already have. They are the best short-term options if you want to increase strength quickly, but if you actually care about long-term results, you need to build your base first.
What are the blest programs?
Garret Blevins released two novice programs and an intermediate program a while back, but it seems like he removed them when he started his A.I. project.
They were free so I don't think the mods will mind that I post a snap of it: https://i.imgur.com/7e7a5L4.jpg
It's just a 8 day, 6 day and a 4 day microcycle that repeats with slightly higher intensities. It's high frequency & high volume with tons of accessories. It's not too different from the GZCLP routine, but it has a more intelligent structure and more intelligent periodization.
As you progress, day 1 will turn into a hypertrophy block, day 2 will turn into a strength block, and day 3 to a strength/peaking block. It's just condensed into a single day since the SRA curve of a beginner is so short.
I like gzclp over the other ones because of the lower number of reps for those strength gains. It also helps raise the floor a bit as well as increasing frequency of the big 4 at least.
This is my progress. I'm in the middle of week 10 right now. I've also been an athlete my entire life though and have had periods of lifting a lot followed by periods of running followed by periods of nothing. So I'm not a true beginner . This is my progress up to my current working sets (in lbs):
Bench: 175 --> 220
Squat: 185 --> 265 (weakest lift)
Deadlift: 205 --> 285
OHP: 100 --> 150
My T2s have increased as well
Bench: 145 --> 190
Squat: 145 --> 190
Deadlift: N/A
OHP: 80 --> 110
Well, yes. These routines work much better for beginners with an athletic background. Not so much for skinny twinks who's never played any sports in their lives.
effort is key, it is true
Is this the video you're talking about ?
I think that’s one of the videos I saw, but they’re doctors and they talk about pain all the damn time. There’s like 5 or 6 on YouTube lol
What’s a good hypertrophy program?
Why do you say this is terrible progress? OP went from 165x5 -> 180x10 on bench and 315x5 -> 345x10 for DL. Hard to judge the squat progress, and OHP is notoriously hard to progress. Maybe OP could have progressed more in this time frame, but I wouldn't call this terrible. I also wouldn't call OP a "novice" based on his description and starting weights (weighing 190 and being able to DL 315 for 5 reps is for sure not what I would consider being a novice).
He went from a 5RM on bench of 165, to doing sets of 180 for 3. If you're doing 165 for 5 you can almost certainly do 180 for a hard 3.
Deadlift, same thing. 10x1 meaning 10 sets of 1 rep with 347 lbs, while before the 18 week period he was doing 315 for a 5RM. Again, if he did 315 for 5 he probably had 350 or very close to it in the tank for some singles already.
Beyond ALL of that, he gained almost 15 lbs. That's a lot of weight, and whether its muscle or fat, he was probably eating plenty enough food to recovery and induce strength/muscle hypertrophy. If you're deadlifting 315 for 5, put on 15 lbs, and train for 18 weeks, I'm sorry but you're doing something wrong.
Also, weighing 190 and being able to deadlift 315 for 5 is extremely commonplace. With a few months of hard training a complete beginner could get to a 315 5RM.
Ooh, I thought OP meant that as a 10 RM set. Then, yes I would agree with you.
It's ten singles not a set of 10 deadlifts
Actually the bench is 10 singles too