Charles Schwab CEO tests the character of job candidates by arranging for their orders to be wrong at breakfast interviews
nytimes.com/2016/02/07/business/walt-bettinge...
nytimes.comPosted Feb 22, 2016, 2:37 PM UTC
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nytimes.comMy eggs! these eggs are not poached!
This interview is over!
Good Day!
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I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!!!
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Schwab has the most screwed up interview process I've ever encountered. While their CEO may be doing this, their HR team can't seem to string together two coherent thoughts. Emails are answered weeks late, you show up to scheduled interviews and the person remarks "Oh, I didn't know I had an interview today. I wasn't prepared", second interview was a 60 minute rant about how I shouldn't work there. It was the first time I've opted out of a job due to the interview process itself.
So yea, Mr. CEO, neat trick with the breakfast. Go fix the rest of your company and stop trying to be "clever"
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Another thing Walt does to test the character of his employees is fuck around with Microsoft Exchange so emails are received weeks late and calendars don't show interviews.
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You don't need to fiddle with Exchange. It works that way by default. Part of Bill Gates interview process. He casts a wide net.
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I interned in their with their Advisor Services department, and while the internship was only in its second year when I was there, communication was still awful. After the internship we were promised that we would receive help in finding RIAs across the country who were hiring junior planners. Though a month after the internship ended the man in charge of helping us went to find a new job. The two employees who replaced him then sent us a questionnaire about types of jobs we were looking for (firm size, geographic location, etc.), so I felt like we were finally getting somewhere. Turns out the questionnaire was not used for anything and we were never connected to potential employers.
I can't really be too upset, because my resume not had Charles Schwab on it, but it was awful that there was a complete breakdown after the internship.
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second interview was a 60 minute rant about how I shouldn't work there
hahaha wut?
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sounds like a little bit of red-pill mixed with a little bit of fight club. good call on your part.
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Yeah but he figured out unions are bad because his dad brought him a resignation letter. This guy is a goddamned telekinetic psychic.
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Maybe you weren't their first pick and they were buying time for responses from the higher rated candidates.
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A version of the waiter rule
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In accordance with this my dad is Kim Jong Un times Satan, I'm sorry for those of you that have to put up with him. He goes to McDonald's and treats it like a steak house.
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Fuckin PlayPlace always so crowded. I'm taking my traveler's checks to a competing establishment.
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not quite, he always custom orders shit, even from McDonalds, and he gets pissed when he asks the person taking his order whats in idk a "spring salad" and they don't know.
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Yeah, I'm not sure that holds anymore. I am almost instantly hostile to the wait staff at mid-range chain restaurants as they've been instructed to push appetizers, to push drinks, to push dessert, to sell sell sell. I'm in that seat to eat what I want, not what the sales department says I should want. Nothing puts my hair on end faster than someone coming after my money.
Not that I punish them aside from being surly. They get the same tip percentage as anywhere else. I understand its part of their salary and shortchanging for any reason just seems low. If service/food/whatever is bad I just don't come back. There's no need to get petty about it.
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Management pushes certain high margin dishes and drinks, server performance is often measured on how many of those items they sell. It's not their fault. So please be civil, it's hard work with low pay.
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I understand they have little choice which is why I don't subsequently hurt them in the most obvious way by shorting their tip. Like I said, if it gets too bad I just avoid places like this entirely.
But at they're in the same bucket as telemarketers. Their job description includes annoying people, so they will at times have to deal with the consequences of this.
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The "consequence" is that you're jerk to them? No, you're always a miserable fuck.
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That's unique, but I actually enjoyed this part of the article more:
A business strategy course in my senior year stands out. I had maintained a 4.0 average all the way through, and I wanted to graduate with a perfect average. It came down to the final exam, and I had spent many hours studying and memorizing formulas to do calculations for the case studies.
The teacher handed out the final exam, and it was on one piece of paper, which really surprised me because I figured it would be longer than that. Once everyone had their paper, he said, “Go ahead and turn it over.” Both sides were blank.
And the professor said, “I’ve taught you everything I can teach you about business in the last 10 weeks, but the most important message, the most important question, is this: What’s the name of the lady who cleans this building?”
And that had a powerful impact. It was the only test I ever failed, and I got the B I deserved. Her name was Dottie, and I didn’t know Dottie. I’d seen her, but I’d never taken the time to ask her name. I’ve tried to know every Dottie I’ve worked with ever since.
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It's a great lesson in being thoughtful and mindful of others. But on the other hand, r/thatHappened
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It's always amusing to read versions of this story. It's been Dottie or James or Fred but the message is a timeless one.
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That seems like a great lesson but I'd be pissed if I were in your situation. There's probably another way to get that message across just as effectively.
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I was just going to say the same thing. How about side A: what's the cleaner's name? Side B: the shit you spent 3 months learning?
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Theodore Roosevelt knew the names of everyone who worked in the White House when he was there
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Further solidifying him as one of my favorite Presidents
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I would also reckon that the staff was considerably smaller back then.
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Theodore Roosevelt was a manic genius who would dictate 2 unrelated letters at once to 2 transcribers so their writing could come closer to keeping pace with his thoughts.
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Fuck I would fail that too. I'm terrible with names. I know everyone, but not their name.
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This is one of those Aesop fable-type chain email stories.
Just google the following:
the janitor's name -scrubs
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Asshole professor is getting a zero on ratemyprofessor and a formal complain to the dean.
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Sounds like someone didn't want to mark any exams that semester.
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Roomba?
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I would go apeshit and ask to speak to the manager in front of the guy doing the interview and I would tear the manager apart. I'd then tell the interviewer that I'm too pissed off to continue and tell him I'll call him tomorrow after I blow off some this steam at the gym. The interviewer would be impressed for two reasons: 1 - I can handle problems, and 2 - I workout.
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Mac?
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Dad?
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You should also openly hit on the coat check girl.
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nah you gotta say you do crossfit
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Sure, sounds good until an applicant dies as a result of a food allergy...
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Only the strong survive
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Sure, sounds good until an applicant dies as a result of a food allergy...
If someone is that sensitive to food they will be careful in any restaurant. It's not like orders are never botched by accident.
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Well sure but the premise is that the CEO arranges for the order to be wrong, unless the change is only in preparation there is certainly a chance that a food someone is allergic to might make their way to the table.
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That's always the case. If the interviewee mentioned a food allergy when ordering I doubt the server or the CEO would allow that item to be served to them regardless of their preplanned deal.
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No, but it is going to suck for everyone involved if it is a deliberate mess-up and the candidate ends up having to use their epi pen. It's an amoral thing to do. A much safer test would be to have a waiter be deliberately rude and see how the candidate deals with that.
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Dark alleys often have dangerous criminals. Might as well be me right?
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Or they put a plate of bacon in front of a Jewish applicant.
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That may be borderline illegal?
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Why would offering bacon to someone who wouldn't eat it be illegal? You're not forcing them to eat it.
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No, I know. My point was that if you assume someone is Jewish and stage a test because of that assumption, it could be illegal due to discrimination. Of course if it has nothing to do with religion then it's fine
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As someone who had bacon with a Jewish friend today, I'm pretty sure there's no law against it, at least outside of Israel.
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Of course food allergies are serious and shouldn't be taken lightly. People could die, of course!
But maybe, if touching a peanut kills you, you just weren't meant to survive.
-Stolen from Louie CK
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Then Schwab sues the restaurant for loss of future income from their dead almost-employee.
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You need to specify allergies even if the menu says it's not in the dish. If you've ever worked in a high volume kitchen, there's shit flying everywhere. Cutting boards and counter tops could have trace amounts of who knows what. People would not eat at 90% of sot down restaurants if they saw the kitchens.
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I would ignore it and just eat whatever they gave me. How does what you are eating for breakfast rise to the level of disrupting a job interview in the least?
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Ah but then you're silently accepting imperfection without trying to correct the issue.
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Addressing every single imperfection requires you devote resources to extremely inconsequential imperfections (eating over easy eggs vs. an omelet) that could otherwise be devoted to more important issues (landing the job).
Doesn't the validity of this test demand that the test-administrator have some idea of the metric the test-taker uses to assess how much of a personal "problem" eating over easy eggs vs. an omelet is?
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If your order is wrong, then someone else's may be wrong too. Keep your minions informed if you notice things going wrong, so corrections can be made.
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Yeah but it's breakfast, not some mission critical project. It's not the same thing, really.
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There are few things more mission critical in life than breakfast...
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The CEO interviews people for jobs that are most likely going to have people working for them too. How you treat a waiter is a really good example of seeing how you'll treat someone that actually does work for you, so it will give him a great view of that dynamic.
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Agreed. I do have employees and I take great care to weed out the bad ones and treat the good ones with respect. I also see the forest for the trees. If I addressed every single egg vs. waffle error of an employee that came my way I would not have any time to run my business.
If it is a problem that may arise repeatedly in the future, it is certainly worth my time to address it from the beginning. If it is a tiny error one-time by a stellar employee, I would prefer we both continue to devote our resources to more important issues.
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It could be seen as your ability to solve a problem or quietly sweep it under the rug.
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It seems the best candidate would be able to rank "problems" in order of magnitude and devote resources to those problems based upon that rank. On a scale of 1 to 100, I would rank not disrupting the job interview with minutiae at a 75. I would rank eating sunny side up eggs over an omelet during that interview as a 0.5.
I am unaware of what resources I could devote to the egg problem that would not disrupt the interview to the point of resulting in a net overall negative benefit.
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the interview would most likely halt for a moment while your food is being served. at the very least you can address it and accept the erroneous order. "excuse me, i ordered eggs over easy, but this omelet looks good, i'll just eat this."
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Agreed. If the waiter halts the conversation and/or asks who ordered the X, I would tactfully restate my order and ask the wrong order be corrected. I would request that everyone begin eating and not allow their meals to get cold waiting on mine.
It the issue arises as an issue, I would certainly address it directly, yet tactfully. If the issue did not arise as an issue, I would eat whatever they brought me, so as not to redirect resources from the important issue of getting the job, to the far less important issue of eating an omelet over a sunny side up egg.
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Being observant and being decisive about what you are going to do about it, even if you choose to do nothing.
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Agreed. But can't I be observant (noticing my order is wrong) and decisive (deciding the meeting is more important than my waffle) without disrupting the meeting?
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I just assumed that the the food being brought would be a natural break in the proceedings anyway.
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What if you get something you're allergic to that you didn't order and die?
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If I was deathly allergic to any food at the restaurant, I certainly would have a different perspective. Since they already screwed up my order once, I would probably kindly cancel my order and simply stick with water, rather than risk cross-contamination.
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Middle managers are insane and spend their time making up pointless interviews and mind games. One reason I'd never want to work for CS
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This seems like one of those things that interviewers find really interesting but which has no scientific basis and is ultimately to create the illusion of a rigorous interview process.
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Agreed, if he has a "correct" way to handle it. If his only objective is how you treat someone when they make a mistake, then that does show at least a little of your character. Of course everyone will be more polite than normal when on an interview so just for that reason, it might not be as helpful.
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Of course everyone will be more polite than normal
Maybe so, but job candidates are also REALLY trying to get the interviewer (or panel of interviewers) to like them. They might be super polite to the server to their face and then make shitty "wait staff, amirite?" comments to the interviewer to hit on some sort of common annoyance. In my professional HR career and as a professor, I've interviewed a lot of applicants for academic faculty positions. I don't think I can be surprised by how weird, crude, or hateful some people will be in an effort to be seen as part of the group. And maybe that's this guy's point as well. Who cares about how you act outwardly. How do you act when you think no one's watching?
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great move, now he can't use it if he interviews any candidates that are prepared though
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Or he can use it and weed out those who are unprepared.
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If you're applying for a job at such a high level that Walt Bettinger is interview, you're prepared. This isn't entry level stuff, this is high level executive.
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yup, I forgot what company it was but they ask all applications to be filled out in blue ink, sure enough alot of people fill them out in black ink and they go straight to the trash
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I think the most important point is knowing who Dottie is though I kinda hoped he would elaborate into how candidates handled the wrong orders.
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Dottie was ground up into the hash browns.
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Her name was Dottie. Remember Dottie.
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Joke's on him. I always show up before my restaurant interviews and tip the manager to get my order right. I'd love to see the look on the CEO's face as my meal arrives exactly as I ordered it. Don't have to deal with adversity if you never experience it, bitch!
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You would show up to the restaurant to tell the staff to do the job you would expect them to do anyway? lol
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You might if you were really picky and the order required explanation but didn't want to consume your interviewer's time.
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Something similar happened to my brother in law when he was applying to a law firm many years ago. He went out to lunch at an expensive restaurant with 2 of the partners, resulting in a large bill. Just before paying and leaving, they decided the would play a game that they "always play" when they go out to eat. The loser of the game has to pay the bill. The two partners schemed to ensure my BIL lost and would then be faced with paying the large bill. They wanted to see how he would react to losing and paying the bill. My BIL was gracious in losing and paid, although very irritated about it. Later one of them paid him for the lunch and let him on in the game. My BIL decided to not work for them, forget those guys.
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Yeeesh that sounds like a horrible practice
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Job interview creepy weirdo perverts.
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What if you liked the mistake. You said "Fuck yeah! salsa!" silently to yourself.
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i probably would, and i'd encourage the interviewer to eat while his food is still hot. it's breakfast so it probably won't take very long anyways.
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Not anymore.
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What does this really tell you about the type of people he usually interviews that this is some kind of an actual test where he gets actual results so much from it that it is something he regularly does.
Notice how most people are like "I wouldn't even mention it nor care and just move on with the interview" - clearly the type of people he interviews don't react/act in that fashion.
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What the fuck is with the comments? Did absolutely no one read the interview?
I liked it, more interesting than I was expecting.
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No, everyone just Ctrl-F'd "breakfast" and just read that part.
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"These eggs aren't cooked the way I asked, but you can count on me to cook your books exactly how you want."
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Interview tricks have backfired on me before because I find them juvenile. I was in the last interview with an HR department- one of two candidates remaining. During the interview with 5 or so people this one lady say to my right, leaned in front of me and stared at me the whole time. I didn't feel flustered or aggravated but I felt like she was juvenile. Either she's blatantly and perversely checking me out or she read one of these articles and felt like it was a good way to screen candidates. I didn't feel to bad about not getting that job because I wouldn't want to work for someone who pulled antics with no merit. Besides, I found a different job I love more with the same company on the floor above theirs.
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Perhaps she was perplexed that a shark was interviewing for an office job
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I'm more of a guppy. The whole interview was a little goofy. For the first round I interviewed with the manager and we hit it off. Actually, during the interview we find out his stepchildren and I had gone to the same high school... and, actually, I had taken his daughter to a party in college. And then he calls her up during the interview to say he's interviewing a guy she knows. I kinda felt at that point I'd already dealt with enough awkwardness to get weird psychological tests from his staff. That's why after the interview with his staff I felt like saying fuck off to them because the manager knew he'd already messed with me. He actually called me up to let me know about the decision and I could tell he did like me.
Oh well.
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I was trying to make a joke about your username, but I feel yah.
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Ergo the guppy part.
I just felt like writing more.
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If that happened to me at an interview, I would ignore the mistake as it is not anywhere near the most important thing going on at the moment. I'm not sure if that would be considered a good thing or a bad thing.
It's probably not considered a bad thing.
But I think the best response would not be to ignore it. The best response would be to politely but firmly ask the waiter to fix the order, and do it in a way as to not disrupt the flow of conversation with the interviewer.
Or, at the very least, acknowledge the order is wrong, but say that you will make the best of it because to you, the company and conversation is more important than talking to the waiter.
Is the waiter a combative toddler in this scenario?
"You have brought me the wrong order. How would you feel if someone brought you the wrong order? Would it make you feel sad? Yes? Please do not bring the wrong order again. We do not bring the wrong order to our friends. Okay, let's go get ice cream."
...but you didn't order Ice Cream
Obviously hes taking a page from the Cesar Milans dog training book. Id say the waiter is Labrador Retriever.
I would rub the waiter's nose in it and yell "BAD!"
Go to the corner. Time-out time!
I think it's more about seeming like you're able to correct a problem rather than having to fight with a waiter to make them do something.
Have you ever tried to order food at a high end restaurant in NYC?
The answer is yes. They are fucking toddlers.
Yes I have, no they are not..
Firmly? I would say politely would be sufficient to get the job done.
It really depends on the mistake. If you ordered a rare steak and they bring you shrimp scampi, you would look like an ineffectual person if you don't at least put some firmness into your demand.
or you could act like a normal person and say, "hey i think you brought me someone else's order, i had a steak."
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Same here. I'm not a picky eater, number one and number two, I'm not complaining about a free meal.
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If it's not licorice, radishes, black olives, or maybe smoked salmon, I would eat it.
Woah, add cilantro to that list and you're me.
You're right not to want to come across as a pushover, but bringing it up to the waiter seems gauche (barring dietary concerns). Better to just mention it to the interviewer as weird but not in the least bit upsetting, and maybe even a chance to try something new.
That would likely be my approach. I like most food, so if it serves its purpose, I would make it clear to the interviewer that I realise it's wrong, but I have made the choice to run with it.
Yeah I don't think so. I would say something, not that I'd be pissed about the food, but it's like I may have gotten somebody else's order or something and it could be an easy fix. If it was not something that was immediately correctable then I would just go with it unless there was something particularly concerning about what came out.
Depends how severe the screw-up is
If order a side of bacon but get a side of Canadian bacon or sausage, who cares
If I order an omelette but I get french toast, not saying something would be weird
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I think the best response would be to politely suggest that there must have been a miscommunication about your order and see if it was just a mix-up coming out of the kitchen.
If the waiter/waitress insists that the plate she delivers is what you ordered (which if she is coached by the interviewer, she probably would have been instructed to do), then depending on what she actually did bring out, either accept it if you don't mind eating it, but still politely insist you did not order what you brought out, or see if you could switch out an item or two to alleviate the issue.
To me that response shows a few things.
Yes.
Recall the Dottie story; how would the person who knew Dottie's name react to a wrong order at a breakfast joint? Not that way.
Or, "I had ordered the french toast but the eggs benedict they brought look even better!"
I have a tough time seeing "ignore" as a bad thing for the exact thing you mention, unless it prevents all food from being consumed. I also would understand someone having it corrected or just calling them out on the bad order, but how that is done would be most paramount. Is the person polite and kind? Are they a jackass?
Really, most any fundamental action would seem reasonable IMO, but the manner in which the person carries out the action is what is important.
If the person obviously cannot eat the meal and lets the entire thing sit there, I would see that as a problem, as it could be taken as as a pushover who will suffer rather than work to make things good. If the person is an asshole to the waitstaff, that would be a no brainer non-hire in my opinion.
Then again... I am not aspiring to be a ceo of anything except me.
I don't think breakfast is comparable, which is why I dislike the test - just because someone is willing to overlook white toast v. wheat toast doesn't mean they'll get lazy with regulatory compliance. But I understand the sentiment, you want someone who can give clear orders and hold people to those expectations - but do so in a professional, polite, and understanding way.
TL;DR: you don't want a bully, but you also don't want a wimp.
I didn't think of it as white vs wheat toast. I saw it as omelet vs Belgian waffle.
Something that is blatantly very wrong and would not go without being noticed.
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Professional and polite at the executive level? What world does that occur? Theory X rules my company.
What if the CEO is a bully, but also a cowardly wimp who has to resort to underhanded tricks?
Or you could look at it like...this guy is tough and he focuses on what is important...the whole idea is stupid unless the person does something obviously ridiculous (starts yelling at waiter or something)
I'm guessing that if the CEO is conducting these interviews, it's for a high enough position that qualifications are already well established. The hiring decision is going to be based on ideas and personality fit, which is what informal interviewing is designed to test.
Ahh, the go to proxy for otherwise protected class discrimination.
Totally hypothetical: As a person very allergic (but not deadly allergic thankfully) to oysters, this made me laugh and then wonder. What if the person didn't mention an allergy because they knew they ordered something without that food, but it was served? Who would be at fault here? Again, just curious. But that oyster mix up would have cost me 3 days...
Well, I assume as long as it didn't kill ya, you'd get the job as the CEO would feel like a real asshat
Assuming CEO isn't an asshat is a dangerous assumption to make.
you're edgy
The restaurant is at fault for fraud if they serve you food other than what you ordered and took orders to tamper with your food from a third party. It's completely unethical. If some CEO of some other company can ask them to change your order, how do you know some random stranger can't just ask them to put poison in your food?
Maybe just a little less hyperbolic next time
I'd eat it and make some old-man, coffee related joke.
Not bad, but not great. They probably are looking for someone who's not a pushover, but at the same time can ask for what they want in a diplomatic way.
Reading that paragraph I get the impression he would be fine with you choosing to ignore it or to be very calm and polite in pointing out the mistake and not showing any sign of stress. If he sees you stressing out about it or even worse talking down to or verbally assaulting the server then that would be the major red flag he is looking for.
That's precisely why I came here, cuz I would do the same thing.
I think he's trying to imagine that as a business situation (albeit a low stress one) then he wants to see how it's handled on a personal level. If he sees that you seem to be ok with a mistake and you ignore it then he's imagining you doing the same in business, which is a bad thing. Yes, he wants to see how you handle it, with grace and politely pointing it out, with frustration or with anger, but ignoring it isn't on the good side of the spectrum. Mistakes do need to be corrected, it just in how they're handled, that's his point. It's part of an interview after all.
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I think just saying "a daddy with money" would work better than a neurosurgeon father, just imo.
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I'm sure they have thought about the different outcomes and "ignore" isn't the worst but definitely isn't the best reaction. Maybe you're a push over...maybe you have poor attention to detail...maybe you're not willing to stand up for what you deserve while in front of a manager. It doesn't make you an asshole or a generally bad person but I could see it lending itself to a lot of question marks regarding your suitability for the Financial world. They're not doing this for mail room candidates.
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